Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Dec 19, 2017 3:41 am

Greetings Alan,
alan wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:57 am
Maybe, other people always want, or feel they need to, as Buddhists, love everything. This does not work for me.
Speaking for myself, I can say I have no such compulsion. Others may feel differently.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by binocular » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:25 am

alan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:36 am
Friends, I hate bad things.
Who said we are your friends??
If you do not, please explain here.
Because I don't have such tunnel vision.
People who indulge in hatred tend to develop tunnel vision in which they see things only black-and-white, in stark opposites.

A person outside of that tunnel sees colors, and more options.
alan wrote:
Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:37 am
Anyone who does not hate what needs to be hated might also not love what needs to be loved.
Or, Pretend to love everything without admitting there are things that you should hate.
That's tunnel vision.
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:13 pm
If you don't 'hate' it, then you either love it or are equanimous towards it. Since loving evil is out of the picture, and equanimity towards evil to me smells of apathy and leads to non-action towards the vital task of opposing and exterminating evil, what you're left with is the hatred of evil as the spur to extricate it.
Then that makes a clear case of not properly understanding the brahmaviharas and specifically equanimity -- equanimity as a reflection on kamma.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by binocular » Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:28 am

Will wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:11 pm
alan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 2:28 am
Why? If you do not hate him, you are God Dam Idiot.
Sounds like you may be developing a hatred of those who do not hate what you hate. Can you see where this leads you?
And where this leads those on the receiving end of his hatred!

Apparently, the OP, even though supposedly mature and an old-timer, doesn't consider that this forum may be read by impressionable or vulnerable people who, reading his posts, will come to the wrong concliusions about Buddhism, or life in general.

I know Alan already from E-Sangha. He was one of the people because of whom I, back then very vulnerable and impressionable, concluded that Buddhism is all about being cool and calling yourself a Buddhist, while having a parallel personal philosophy that doesn't have much to do with Buddhism.

Kamma is kamma, but this was an unnecessary detour for me.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by alan » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:29 am

I refer to you as friends, because that is how I like to talk to those who are fellow Buddhists. Guess I could start a post by saying: "Hey, enemies".
Also, I was never on E-Sangha. Didn't even know it existed before joining DW and hearing about it.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by alan » Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:42 am

Like to think I have wide angle vision. Unlike a binocular!
Oh, you just left yourself so open to that. Get it?
Just a joke, friend.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by binocular » Wed Dec 20, 2017 8:28 am

alan wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:29 am
I refer to you as friends, because that is how I like to talk to those who are fellow Buddhists. Guess I could start a post by saying: "Hey, enemies".
Also, I was never on E-Sangha. Didn't even know it existed before joining DW and hearing about it.
Well, there were actually several posters there with the same kind of views as you express here.
And I remember you from years back at this forum.
alan wrote:
Wed Dec 20, 2017 1:42 am
Like to think I have wide angle vision. Unlike a binocular!
Oh, you just left yourself so open to that. Get it?
Just a joke, friend.
The "binocular" in my screen name is an adjective, not a noun.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by alan » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:22 am

Ok, hadn't thought of that.
Two eyes, one mind. The ability to see different perspectives, but stay true to what is important. If that is what you mean, I dig it.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:58 am

DNS wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:46 am
Elie Wiesel wrote: To hate would be to reduce myself.
This is really the heart of the matter.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by binocular » Fri Dec 22, 2017 3:58 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:58 am
DNS wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 3:46 am
Elie Wiesel wrote: To hate would be to reduce myself.
This is really the heart of the matter.
How come some people don't see it that way?

I once saw a poem (in an anthology of poems selected by our national authors) that said "I hate and I despise" over and over again, and listed all the things the guy hated and despised.
Anyway, the idea that hatred and contempt are something positive appears established.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by manas » Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:57 pm

alan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:36 am
Friends, I hate bad things.
If you do not, please explain here.
Because I am an aware person, who hates bad things. some things need to be hated. Otherwise, people will continue to be stupid, and ignorant.
Right?
Oh, please don't just give me this nonsense about how we should all be non-hateful. What we need to be is smarter in our judgments.

If anyone can show an example in the Suttas where Buddha tells us to be stupid in our judgements, to not be aware, and to not hate things that need to be hated, show it now.
Hi alan,
I won't gloss over your question with platitudes, because I understand how you feel.
I too feel anger, even hatred, towards some individuals.
I sometimes consider what, for example, sexual offenders against children have done, how they often get away with just a slap on the wrist, while the victims are often left with emotional (and/or physical) scars which can take a lifetime to heal. What's not to hate, regarding child abusers? They are the lowest form of life.

However, when I sometimes fantasize about what kinds of punishments would be fitting for child-molesting scum to endure, I keep reminding myself that hatred is just an emotion, a negative emotion, one wishing harm and pain to afflict another, and that it simply isn't good for my mind. As an act of caring towards myself, I try to recall what the Buddha taught about kamma, and the results of kamma, and to consider that in previous existences, we have all most probably done just about every conceivable good and bad thing there is to do - this is not to excuse ourselves or anyone else, just to make the point that, over the course of samsara, we have all most likely fallen very short indeed at times.

So, this time it's the child-molesters turn, to have created some hell-attracting kamma. I often hope there are hells, so all the pain and misery those scum have inflicted on the vulnerable, can be visited upon them, so all that evil can be burned out of them. But I also know, that no harm will be done to these scum by my hand. I simply don't want to be that sort of person, someone who does terrible things to another being. I don't want to be that sort of person.

So let's just hope that all such scum, depending on how much they have harmed others, are stopped, and/or find the legal system and/or prison, or failing all of that, finally get what they deserve from the hell-wardens. Just remain non-harming ourselves. As for the emotion of hate, I'm still working on that one, to be completely honest. It's a long-term task, but I do hope someday I can live without it ever arising again, because it's painful.

with metta.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Meezer77 » Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:45 pm

Earlier on in the forum Alan was saying that he hates Donald Trump. I don't hate Trump myself, but I can't understand why a 70 year old would be allowed to run a country. He should be chilling out and playing golf or watching the telly or something.

Hope no one on here will hate me for expressing this opinion.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by chownah » Wed Jan 03, 2018 2:15 am

Meezer77 wrote:
Tue Jan 02, 2018 11:45 pm
Earlier on in the forum Alan was saying that he hates Donald Trump. I don't hate Trump myself, but I can't understand why a 70 year old would be allowed to run a country. He should be chilling out and playing golf or watching the telly or something.

Hope no one on here will hate me for expressing this opinion.
:rofl:
chownah

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by No_Mind » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:19 am

alan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 1:36 am
Friends, I hate bad things.
If you do not, please explain here.
Because I am an aware person, who hates bad things. some things need to be hated. Otherwise, people will continue to be stupid, and ignorant.
Right?
Oh, please don't just give me this nonsense about how we should all be non-hateful. What we need to be is smarter in our judgments.

If anyone can show an example in the Suttas where Buddha tells us to be stupid in our judgements, to not be aware, and to not hate things that need to be hated, show it now.
Perhaps you can use a less vigorous synonym viz dislike, resentment, detest in place of hate.

The words "I hate ..." causes physical reaction (increased blood pressure, increase in neuron activity). Dislike etc does not.

Are there lots of things I dislike .. sure.

:namaste:

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I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by xofz » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:21 am

There is one being I hated and wanted to see die more than anything, ever. That being is Satan. The devil himself. I also got royally pissed off at my mother for a while, but that eventually passed.

Is hatred for the devil righteous?
My real life name is Sam.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Meezer77 » Wed Jan 03, 2018 1:50 pm

I hate my boss at work, she's a total Rottweiler with knickers :evil:

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by alan » Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:57 am

You need to act on your hatred, if it is justified. Otherwise, you will just sit there and get slaughtered. Like the Jews, when Hitler came to power.
Who thinks the Jews should have not fought back? They could have fought from the beginning. Like I fight against God Dam Donald Trump.
Don't be deceived--don't be complacent. God Dam Trump is an existential threat to all we hold dear. You're a fool if you don't understand this.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by dharmacorps » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:10 am

alan wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:57 am
You need to act on your hatred, if it is justified. Otherwise, you will just sit there and get slaughtered. Like the Jews, when Hitler came to power.
Who thinks the Jews should have not fought back? They could have fought from the beginning. Like I fight against God Dam Donald Trump.
Don't be deceived--don't be complacent. God Dam Trump is an existential threat to all we hold dear. You're a fool if you don't understand this.
Better hate all the fools that don't understand this then. And hate all those who don't hate enough. And hate those who don't hate in the way you hate. Those people are the worst.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by alan » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:16 am

Correct. You need to figure out what to hate. For instance, I hate stupidity. I hate ignorance. I hate it when stupid, ignorant fools take over, and ruin it for the smart, aware, thoughtful people.
What do you hate?

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by SDC » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:25 am

alan wrote:
Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:16 am
Correct. You need to figure out what to hate. For instance, I hate stupidity. I hate ignorance. I hate it when stupid, ignorant fools take over, and ruin it for the smart, aware, thoughtful people.
What do you hate?
Complaining.

You sound ridiculous, dude. I remember when you were fun. "The time for fun is over" blah blah, yeah we get it. #disappointedinmyoldjazzbuddy

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by alan » Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:44 am

Jazz? I love that.

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