Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

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Stiphan
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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:13 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:22 pm
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 9:07 pm

You are 100% right there, maybe. I am also awaiting canonical quotations regarding whether we shouldn't hate anything, including evil or the evil things people do. I personally 'abhor' evil - I do not use the word hate, but it's more akin to 'disgust' or 'loathe'. However, I do not hate anyone. Also, do you not think you should oppose evil, in the name of good?
Yes, depending on what it is, my understanding is that we should indeed oppose evil. The trick is, though, not to give in to hating as a means of getting rid of it.
If you don't 'hate' it, then you either love it or are equanimous towards it. Since loving evil is out of the picture, and equanimity towards evil to me smells of apathy and leads to non-action towards the vital task of opposing and exterminating evil, what you're left with is the hatred of evil as the spur to extricate it. Evil, and evil actions do not have feelings - people do have feelings though. You can hate evil all day long without harming yourself because it is not directed at beings who have feelings but towards actions, and that will aid in moving in the other direction - towards good. If you hate evil, it means you dearly love good - it doesn't mean you make bad kamma out of the root of dosa, hatred. What I am saying is "if you hate hatred, it means you love love; if you hate evil then you surely love good." (Double negation = positive). But with regards to people, hating them is evil. It is the root of bad kamma and therefore evil. Also, it doesn't help, since you increase your own unskilful tendencies and you can't get them out of the grip of hatred either. This is why the Buddha said in Dhp. 5 that hatred is never overcome by more hatred, but only by love (or non-hatred). Out of compassion, get them to know that their actions are wrong and if they have some wisdom, they will see that and correct it and move in a positive direction. Always criticize the action, not the person.

But what would be your own attitude or reaction if you saw someone being bullied, abused, tortured, discriminated, raped or murdered? Would you love that, be equanimous or wouldn't you be totally horripilated? Would you love those actions, be neutral or wouldn't you 'hate' such evil? If you loved it, you'd join the perpetrator; if you were neutral and equanimous, you'd just continue watching the action without doing anything about it; but if you hated it, you'd try to stop it.
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Phena » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:39 pm

It's not unskilful to oppose someone who is draconian, divisive and morally vacuous, out of concern and care for ourselves and others. This is rooted in compassion and concern. Yes, speaking up and acting is actually OK, when faced with dangerous individuals and situations. However, it is unskilful to support and advocate for someone hateful, divisive and morally vacuous, and through ignorance not see the ramifications for ourselves and others. This is rooted in delusion. What is also unskilful is to use our positions of authority and responsibility whereby we have the ability to influence others, to promote and advocate morally dubious positions and individuals, dressed-up as being wise and in accord with the Dhamma, when in fact it is promoting a personal political agenda. This is irresponsible and rooted in delusion. Those person(s) should reflect deeply on this, though I think it is evident that they have been given carte blanche from the ‘top’ to carry out this agenda as it reflects the political leanings of that individual.

This is why I will no longer participate in this forum. I will vote with my feet. Besides, the level of Dhamma discussion has declined dramatically here for some time now, due to many of the wiser posters vacating, perhaps for similar reasons. There are frankly better forums to participate in.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:41 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:13 pm
If you don't 'hate' it, then you either love it or are equanimous towards it.
No, I don't think so. This is to do with feelings, whereas hatred is about volition. One can have an extremely unpleasant feeling, without hating the thing that gives rise to it, or the feeling itself.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:45 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:41 pm
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:13 pm
If you don't 'hate' it, then you either love it or are equanimous towards it.
No, I don't think so. This is to do with feelings, whereas hatred is about volition. One can have an extremely unpleasant feeling, without hating the thing that gives rise to it, or the feeling itself.
I don't understand. You say you don't hate evil. What is your attitude towards it then? Neutral or positive? Or something else, but then I don't think there is something outside or beyond a positive, negative or neutral attitude towards evil and evil actions. If there is, what is it?

Please answer my hypothetical situation of someone inflicting abuse on another as well. What do you think about it?
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:02 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 10:45 pm
I don't understand. You say you don't hate evil. What is your attitude towards it then? Neutral or positive? Or something else, but then I don't think there is something outside or beyond a positive, negative or neutral attitude towards evil and evil actions. If there is, what is it?
No, I'm not saying that I don't hate evil. I don't have that much control over my mind! I'm saying that (as far as I understand the teachings, of course!) the Buddha did not recommend that we hate evil. He often spoke of purifying the mind of hatred, and this he seems to have done without exception.

My attitude towards evil depends on what type of evil is meant. (For example, I might consider certain people to be evil, or I might suffer evil pains or illnesses, or I might think there are actions so unskillful that they deserve the label of "evil".) Generally, the Buddha recommends a situational approach in dealing with these - they obviously can't be dealt with in the same way - but I can't recall him ever saying that hatred should be deployed or encouraged. Trying to deduce that hating must be a recommended attitude or approach to some sorts of evil does not work, because nowhere (AFAIK) did the Buddha provide an exhaustive set of attitudes, one of which is hatred. He did this with feelings ("pleasant, unpleasant, and neither-pleasant-nor-unpleasant") but that is something else entirely.
Please answer my hypothetical situation of someone inflicting abuse on another as well. What do you think about it?
Again, what I think about it may well differ from what the Buddha recommended. But given two possibilities where one is that one gets the abuse to cease, and the other is that one gets the abuse to stop by means of hatred, then I think the Buddha's preference would be for the former.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:16 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:02 pm
Please answer my hypothetical situation of someone inflicting abuse on another as well. What do you think about it?
Again, what I think about it may well differ from what the Buddha recommended. But given two possibilities where one is that one gets the abuse to cease, and the other is that one gets the abuse to stop by means of hatred, then I think the Buddha's preference would be for the former.
I didn't mean that you would stop the abuse by hating the abuser. I meant that you hated the abuse itself. And if you didn't, then you'd be either positive about it (liking or loving it, which is extreme schadenfreude), or being neutral or equanimous about it which is apathy and the abuser would just continue to inflict further harm.

This is because we are talking about attitudes to evil. But if we're talking about attitudes towards persons, then we'd have to think how we can stop the abuser by peaceful means.

Gandhi stood up to evil by peaceful means, for example. His philosophy was based on ahiṃsā, non-violence, yet he opposed the evil in his country.
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Nicolas » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:18 pm

Kakacūpama Sutta (MN 21) wrote: Even if bandits were to carve you up savagely, limb by limb, with a two-handled saw, he among you who let his heart get angered even at that would not be doing my bidding. Even then you should train yourselves: 'Our minds will be unaffected and we will say no evil words. We will remain sympathetic, with a mind of good will, and with no inner hate. We will keep pervading these people with an awareness imbued with good will and, beginning with them, we will keep pervading the all-encompassing world with an awareness imbued with good will — abundant, expansive, immeasurable, free from hostility, free from ill will.' That's how you should train yourselves.
Maṅgala Sutta (Snp 2.4) wrote: A mind that remains unshaken
By the ups and the downs of the world,
Sorrowless, stainless and safe:
This is the greatest good fortune.
Āghāta­paṭivinaya Sutta (AN 10.80) wrote: There are these ten ways of subduing hatred. Which ten?
[1] Thinking, ‘He has done me harm. But what should I expect?’ one subdues hatred.
[2] Thinking, ‘He is doing me harm. But what should I expect?’ one subdues hatred.
[3] Thinking, ‘He is going to do me harm. But what should I expect?’ one subdues hatred.
[4] Thinking, ‘He has done harm to people who are dear & pleasing to me. But what should I expect?’ one subdues hatred.
[5] Thinking, ‘He is doing harm to people who are dear & pleasing to me. But what should I expect?’ one subdues hatred.
[6] Thinking, ‘He is going to do harm to people who are dear & pleasing to me. But what should I expect?’ one subdues hatred.
[7] Thinking, ‘He has aided people who are not dear or pleasing to me. But what should I expect?’ one subdues hatred.
[8] Thinking, ‘He is aiding people who are not dear or pleasing to me. But what should I expect?’ one subdues hatred.
[9] Thinking, ‘He is going to aid people who are not dear or pleasing to me. But what should I expect?’ one subdues hatred.
[10] One does not get worked up over impossibilities.
These are ten ways of subduing hatred.

(See also AN 9.30.)

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Nicolas » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:21 pm

Perhaps softer and more adequate words would be “to disapprove of”. “To hate” carries with it violence and aversion.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:24 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:21 pm
Perhaps softer and more adequate words would be “to disapprove of”. “To hate” carries with it violence and aversion.
I like that.

But... would you simply "disapprove" of Auschwitz?
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Nicolas » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:27 pm

What would the Buddha do if atrocities were committed in his presence? Would he lose his peace of mind? No. He would take action, but he would not be horrified nor would hate invade his mind.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:28 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:16 pm
I didn't mean that you would stop the abuse by hating the abuser. I meant that you hated the abuse itself.
Then read it as follows: Which is better, seeing the abuse, hating that abuse, and stopping the abuse; or, alternatively, seeing the abuse and then stopping the abuse without any hatred involved?
And if you didn't, then you'd be either positive about it (liking or loving it, which is extreme schadenfreude), or being neutral or equanimous about it which is apathy and the abuser would just continue to inflict further harm.
Again, I might. Or you might. But I'm more interested in what the Buddha recommends. Deriving his supposed recommendations from one's own incapacities seems to me less than useful. And again, you seem to be conflating the teachings on feelings with hatred. They are different.
This is because we are talking about attitudes to evil. But if we're talking about attitudes towards persons, then we'd have to think how we can stop the abuser by peaceful means.
Agreed. We might also want to think about stop the abuser without any hatred, as well as by peaceful means.
Gandhi stood up to evil by peaceful means, for example. His philosophy was based on ahiṃsa, non-violence, yet he opposed the evil in his country.
Possibly true, but this fails to answer the question because we don't know whether Gandhi hated the evil in his country (my guess is that he did); and also because whether he did or not throws no light upon what the Buddha recommends in the suttas.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:29 pm

Nicolas wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:27 pm
What would the Buddha do if atrocities were committed in his presence? Would he lose his peace of mind? No. He would take action, but he would not be horrified nor would hate invade his mind.
That's a great answer. Thank you. :anjali:

I'm sure he would strongly criticize the action.
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:35 pm

That's a very good discussion Sam Vara and Nicolas. Thank you!

May I ask: Do you think the Buddha hated evil?

If we are to answer the thread title question, then we might as well answer that question as a cue.

You'd probably answer 'No'. But the fact is that the Buddha did condemn and criticize evil. So he did that without hating it, I suppose?

By the way, I think you have great points there!
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:45 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:35 pm
That's a very good discussion Sam Vara and Nicolas. Thank you!

May I ask: Do you think the Buddha hated evil?

If we are to answer the thread title question, then we might as well answer that question as a cue.

You'd probably answer 'No'. But the fact is that the Buddha did condemn and criticize evil. So he did that without hating it, I suppose?

By the way, I think you have great points there!
Thank you, Stiphan. It's always good to discuss things with you. My view is that the Buddha did not hate evil, as hatred was one of the mental defilements that he had overcome. The thread title seems to ignore the point that hatred is to be abandoned or eradicated, and posit that there are things that should be hated. But posts in support of that view have merely stated what they posters themselves or other ordinary people have hated, and have not quoted the Buddha listing any things that should be hated.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:49 pm

"Having done a mental action, you should reflect on it: 'This mental action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful mental action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful mental action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should feel distressed, ashamed, & disgusted with it. Feeling distressed, ashamed, & disgusted with it, you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful mental action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities."
Ambalaṭṭhikārāhulovāda Sutta, MN 61, transl. by Ṭhānissaro Bhikkhu

Bhikkhu Bodhi translates the bold as: "Then you should be repelled, humiliated and disgusted by that mental action."

Here we are talking about mental evil actions done by oneself. It seems to me as what the Buddha is basically saying is that we should have aversion towards them? No?
Last edited by Stiphan on Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:06 am, edited 3 times in total.
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by Stiphan » Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:51 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:45 pm
Thank you, Stiphan. It's always good to discuss things with you. My view is that the Buddha did not hate evil, as hatred was one of the mental defilements that he had overcome. The thread title seems to ignore the point that hatred is to be abandoned or eradicated, and posit that there are things that should be hated. But posts in support of that view have merely stated what they posters themselves or other ordinary people have hated, and have not quoted the Buddha listing any things that should be hated.
Thank you, Sam Vara. Hopefully we'll reach a conclusion! :smile:
Call me Stephen, please. May you be well and happy. :heart:

Know right from wrong — and their consequences — and act accordingly, always doing your very best.

The Path begins with the acknowledgement of Truth; it ends in Freedom; and in between is a huge amount of Effort.
Meanwhile, care about others.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by alan » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:18 am

I like to get up early and take pretty pictures. Thats why I'll be Vice President.
Adam Schiff could be President.
Here's a pretty picture:
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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:26 am

Greetings,
Stiphan wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:51 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:45 pm
Thank you, Stiphan. It's always good to discuss things with you. My view is that the Buddha did not hate evil, as hatred was one of the mental defilements that he had overcome. The thread title seems to ignore the point that hatred is to be abandoned or eradicated, and posit that there are things that should be hated. But posts in support of that view have merely stated what they posters themselves or other ordinary people have hated, and have not quoted the Buddha listing any things that should be hated.
Thank you, Sam Vara. Hopefully we'll reach a conclusion! :smile:
Honestly, I thought that was a pretty good conclusion!

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by alan » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:37 am

Anyone who does not hate what needs to be hated might also not love what needs to be loved.
Or, Pretend to love everything without admitting there are things that you should hate.

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Re: Is hatred always bad, if you hate what should be hated?

Post by alan » Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:57 am

It might be a question of motivation. I'm motivated to hate things that need to be hated. And Love things that should be loved.
What should be hated? Well. you know.--made my position clear.
Maybe, other people always want, or feel they need to, as Buddhists, love everything. This does not work for me.
The Buddha did not love everything, Right? He sometimes said that there were others who did not follow the path, and told them so.
Yes. I know that is true.

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