Trump. And why I hate him.

A place to bring a contemplative / Dharmic perspective and opinions to current events and politics.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:41 am

Greetings binocular,
binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:25 am
alan wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:40 am
Here is why I hate Trump, and why you should, too.
This post is clearly against the TOS:
2. Speech
g. Attacks against the Buddha, Dhamma, or Sangha, which violate the Intention of this forum (See Section 1. Intention for details)
It looks like he will get away with it on a technicality... TOS2g speaks only of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha - no mention in there of wheel-turning monarchs. My mistake, sorry.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by binocular » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:47 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:41 am
It looks like he will get away with it on a technicality... TOS2g speaks only of the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha - no mention in there of wheel-turning monarchs. My mistake, sorry.
He clearly called for hatred, which is undhammic!

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by chownah » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:32 am
chownah wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 9:21 am
I like trump because he is a horse's ass and you know what comes out of a horse's ass.
If the horse's ass is a jenny, then we can expect a hinny to come out of her.
:tongue:
If trump was a jenny then his kids would all be sterile.....which doesn't seem to be the case.....I guess there must be another explanation.... :thinking: :buddha2: :buddha2: :buddha2: :buddha2: :buddha2:
chownah

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Bundokji » Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:40 pm

I think people who hate trump are attached to the notion of "civilization". The term implies that human beings should act and behave in ways that are socially predicable and acceptable.

And what is socially acceptable from a civilized perspective? it is based on a hierarchical structure of the human psyche, that there are some aspects within us are dirty and should be suppressed and kept hidden. For instance, civilized people do not fart and burp while in company, and they use fragrances to be more socially acceptable. Of course, that does not make them radically different from those who are not civilized, but they are merely more skillful in hiding certain aspects of themselves.

The problem is, in my opinion, is when the act of hiding turns into a belief that they are radically different from those who tend to hide less. The whole process is driven by a desire for purity and overlooking what is happening in their own minds.

And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:11 pm

Hi Bundokji
Bundokji wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:40 pm
I think people who hate trump are attached to the notion of "civilization". The term implies that human beings should act and behave in ways that are socially predicable and acceptable.
That human beings behave to some degree in ways that are socially predicable and acceptable seems a reasonable expectation. In the days of the Buddha lay followers expected a certain level of conduct from monastics and training rules were put in place.
Bundokji wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:40 pm
And what is socially acceptable from a civilized perspective? it is based on a hierarchical structure of the human psyche, that there are some aspects within us are dirty and should be suppressed and kept hidden. For instance, civilized people do not fart and burp while in company, and they use fragrances to be more socially acceptable. Of course, that does not make them radically different from those who are not civilized, but they are merely more skillful in hiding certain aspects of themselves.
or more willing. Or have an aspiration of higher conduct, which shapes behaviour
Bundokji wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:40 pm
The problem is, in my opinion, is when the act of hiding turns into a belief that they are radically different from those who tend to hide less. The whole process is driven by a desire for purity and overlooking what is happening in their own minds.
I wonder if many can successfully overlook what arises in there own minds (consistently). I certainly can't but I can, sometimes, apply restraint in a way that is skilful.

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by perkele » Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:09 pm

alan wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:40 am
Here is why I hate Trump, and why you should, too.
binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:25 am
This post is clearly against the TOS:
2. Speech
g. Attacks against the Buddha, Dhamma, or Sangha, which violate the Intention of this forum (See Section 1. Intention for details)
Indulging in hatred and calling upon others to do so is undhammic.
binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:47 am
He clearly called for hatred, which is undhammic!
Jesus... :rolleye:
There is and always has been a lot of undhammic discussion here. What with the authoritarianism?

And how is "attacking" Trump an attack against Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha. Since when has Trump anything to do with Buddha, Dhamma or Sangha? Seriously. I'm cereal. I find it "problematic" (problematic) to conflate these two or give the impression of such a conflation or supposed connection.

I would take Alan's "call for hatred" about just as serious as retro's implication of Trump being a universal monarch.

That is just normal shitposting which has been an ancient custom here and across the web since beginningless time.

We should keep the Buddha's teachings on the causes for a nation's (or forum's) welfare or decline (referring to the example of the Vajjians) in mind.

But actually, no, I find Alan's venting much less serious. Retro's shitposting could be taken serious by unsuspecting naive people, and I think that is much more undhammic and worth a rebuttal. :soap:

It has been fortold:
DN 26: Cakkavatti-Sῑhanāda Sutta wrote:23. ‘Among the people with an eighty thousand-year lifespan, girls will become marriageable at five hundred. And such people will know only three kinds of disease: greed, fasting, and old age. And in the time of those people this continent of Jambudipa will be powerful and prosperous, and villages, towns and cities will be but a cock’s flight one from the next. This Jambudipa, like Avῑci, will be as thick with people as the jungle is thick with reeds and rushes. At that time the Vārānasi of today will be a royal city called Ketumatῑ, powerful and prosperous, crowded with people and well-supplied. In Jambudipa there will be eighty-four thousand cities headed by Ketumati as the royal capital.

24. ‘And in the time of the people with an eighty thousand-year life-span, there will arise in the capital city of Ketumati a king called Sankha, a wheel-turning monarch, a righteous monarch of the law, conqueror of the four quarters... (as verse 2).

25. ‘And in that time of the people with an eighty thousand-year life-span, there will arise in the world a Blessed Lord, an Arahant fully-enlightened Buddha named Metteyya, endowed with wisdom and conduct, a Well-Farer, Knower of the worlds, incomparable Trainer of men to be tamed, Teacher of gods and humans, enlightened and blessed, just as I am now. He will thoroughly know by his own super-knowledge, and proclaim, this universe with its devas and maras and Brahmas, its ascetics and Brahmins, and this generation with its princes and people, just as I do now. He will teach the Dhamma, lovely in its beginning, lovely in its middle, lovely in its ending, in the spirit and in the letter, and proclaim, just as I do now, the holy life in its fullness and purity. He will be attended by a company of thousands of monks, just as I am attended by a company of hundreds.

26. ‘Then King Sankha will re-erect the palace once built by King Mahā-Panāda804 and, having lived in it, will give it up and present it to the ascetics and Brahmins, the beggars, the wayfarers, the destitute. Then, shaving off hair and beard, he will don yellow robes and go forth from the household life into homelessness under the supreme Buddha Metteyya. Having gone forth, he will remain alone, in seclusion, ardent, eager and resolute, and before long he will have attained in this very life, by his own super-knowledge and resolution, that unequalled goal of the holy life, for the sake of which young men of good family go forth from the household life into homelessness, and will abide therein.
First there's supposed to be that "sword-interval" where people butcher each other for seven days, and after that, a slow slow... rebuilding of civilization. And all that long time after the last Buddha's teachings have been forgotten. And only then will appear this wheel-turning emperor and Buddha Metteyya at the same time.

So... it's not yet time for a wheel-turning emperor.

Srsly retro... wheel-turning emperor Trump. What the Avici. :roll:
(I think you're not cereal about this, but... cereally... problematic... so problematic [I have not even read more than some half sentences of what's written in these links, but just included them to make sue everyone understands I'm cereal. :soap: ] )

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:13 pm

perkele wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:09 pm
...
Super cereal
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by m0rl0ck » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:29 pm

alan wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 12:40 am
First off, friends, I apologize for not getting into the other discussions on this. Makes me so sick. I had to take some time off.
Here is why I hate Trump, and why you should, too.
1) He refuses to recognize facts.
2) He is living in his own, separate reality, in which only he is great--all others are wrong.
3)He is debasing, through his very presence, but also his "tweets", the Presidency.
4) He is a God Dam Crazy Man, a complete narcissist, and also a pathological liar.

In the early thirties, no one in Germany thought that God Dam Crazy Adolph would take over. But it happened. He started by appealing to the lowest class, relying on their prejudice, and saying the whole system is corrupt--only he could make Germany great again. Then, he took over the the opposition parties, and the press.
Sound familiar?
I mostly hate him because he is a racist, sexist half wit liar, but each to his own. We do both agree about the liar part :)

Also i hate him because he is out to cripple free speech in the US by repealing net neutrality and because he is trying to take health care away from millions of poor people and because he seems bent on starting world war III in a fit of pique.

Also i hate him because he is rude, crude and an embarrassment to every american. And that he has debased political discourse in this country to the level of a 3 year olds tantrum.

But mostly i hate him because he is out to further disenfranchise the already marginalized. Im sure that he and his political base of racist morons would have us in concentration camps if he thought he could get away with it.
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by binocular » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:37 pm

perkele wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 3:09 pm
There is and always has been a lot of undhammic discussion here.
/.../
That is just normal shitposting which has been an ancient custom here and across the web since beginningless time.
Gee!
And how is "attacking" Trump an attack against Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha. Since when has Trump anything to do with Buddha, Dhamma or Sangha?

A call to hatred is an attack on the Dhamma.


Maybe I would be better off if I stopped trying to be one of the "cool folks" ... :broke:

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by lyndon taylor » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:39 pm

I don't think its wrong to hate evil!!
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by DNS » Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:52 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:19 am
....
DooDoot,

Are you a Trump supporter? I thought you were a leftist, at least economically?

You often quote about the Jewish conspiracy stuff regarding Zionist agendas, international banking, neo-cons, etc. You do know Kushner is Jewish, Ivanka converted to Judaism and Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem?

How can you be a Trump supporter?

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Bundokji » Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:13 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 2:11 pm
That human beings behave to some degree in ways that are socially predicable and acceptable seems a reasonable expectation. In the days of the Buddha lay followers expected a certain level of conduct from monastics and training rules were put in place.
Hello Mr Man,

What is socially acceptable seems to be something always negotiated. Expectations are the outcome of a repeated behavior by a certain social class or certain social situation. We seem to expect leaders and politicians to behave and talk differently than average citizens as they represent a country. Trump did not meet the expectation of how a politician should behave, and yet, this did not become a cause for disappointment among his supporters. In fact, many see his behavior as refreshing and less pretentious.

I can't see how your example of the training rules for lay Buddhists is relevant here. Buddhism has its own enlightenment project, and it happened, that we, as Buddhists, believed in it and followed it, but for the vast majority of people in the world, it is not necessarily the best choice.
or more willing. Or have an aspiration of higher conduct, which shapes behaviour
How does the aspiration of higher conduct becomes a cause for hatred (as in the case of the OP) if i may ask? my contribution on this thread was an attempt to provide a theory or an explanation. Do you have a different explanation?
I wonder if many can successfully overlook what arises in there own minds (consistently). I certainly can't but I can, sometimes, apply restraint in a way that is skilful.
The problem as i see it, at least when it comes to politicians, is that they lack good intentions. Usually, those who deceive others by hiding their true intentions are themselves deceived by their own lies. When it comes to Trump, he can be seen as a relatively safer choice as he builds very low expectations about himself.

During the last four days, i attended a conference and i met a Palestinian guy. We had a conversation about Trump and his declaration of Jerusalem as the capital of Israel, and the Palestinian guy told me that even though he dislikes Trump, he respects him for not pretending to be neutral as previous presidents did.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 16, 2017 7:19 pm

Hi Bundokji
Bundokji wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:13 pm
I can't see how your example of the training rules for lay Buddhists is relevant here.
I think you may have misunderstood what I meant.

I was referring to how lay followers (or sometimes other monastics) expected a certain level of behaviour from monastics (socially predicable and acceptable behaviour). When the monastics failed to meet their expectations the lay people complained. Subsequently rules were put in place which governed the behaviour of monastics.

I was not referring to rules for lay Buddhists.

Not sure if you will find it relevant though (or understandable) :)

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:31 pm

Greetings,
DNS wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:52 pm
DooDoot,

Are you a Trump supporter?
Obviously DooDoot is best positioned to speak on this, but my understanding (from this and other topics) is that there are aspects of what Trump has done that DooDoot approves of. There are aspects of what Trump has done that DooDoot doesn't approve of. There are other aspects of what Trump has done, is doing, or may be preparing to do, where DooDoot is willing to wait and see how it pans out.

The fact he approaches it on an issue by issue basis, rather than on a basis of general like and dislike (and their associated knee-jerk reactions) is something I have appreciated, and it makes for more interesting reading and conversation.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by DNS » Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:52 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 10:31 pm
The fact he approaches it on an issue by issue basis, rather than on a basis of general like and dislike (and their associated knee-jerk reactions) is something I have appreciated, and it makes for more interesting reading and conversation.
Yeah, it could be Trump's brash personality that makes people either love him or hate him, not much middle way; focusing on issue by issue basis would be better.

I like how Trump mentioned the Iraq War was a big mistake and blasted G W Bush about that during the campaign and so far, no new wars.

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by DooDoot » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:12 pm

DNS wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:52 pm
Are you a Trump supporter? I thought you were a leftist, at least economically?
Personally, I just judge based in good & bad kamma performed, as taught in the Holy Koran, where, on the Day of Judgment, each atoms weight of good & evil performed will be weighed up. Personally, I think the whole American system stinks & can't imagine myself supporting any American president, ever; probably not even Kennedy. In my eyes, the US govt & military is imperialist or covert colonialist.

If Trump reduces imperialist militarism, I have mudita (gladness). If Trump reduces taxes for the wealthy, I don't approve.
DNS wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:52 pm
You often quote about the Jewish conspiracy stuff regarding Zionist agendas, international banking, neo-cons, etc. You do know Kushner is Jewish, Ivanka converted to Judaism and Trump moved the embassy to Jerusalem?
I doubt there is a kooky conspiracy. The Israeli foreign policy goals were clearly stated in the Yinon Plan and Richard Perle's 'Clean Break', which were followed exactly post 9/11. Netanyahu has recently openly expressed his unhappiness at the failure of ISIS in Syria. Two Jewish men below, one blaming Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran, Libya & North Korea for 9/11, while 9/11 was occurring; the other incredulous to why Iraq, Iran, Libya were blamed for 9/11; a few days after 9/11:




DNS wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:52 pm
How can you be a Trump supporter?
Kushner is not merely Jewish. From what I have heard, Kushner's family are settlement builders in Israel & I assume the West Bank. They appear to be radical Zionists rather than merely Jewish. Not every Jewish person is a radical Zionist or ordinary Zionist. Many Jewish people oppose Zionism.



In short, I am not a Trump supporter but I am a Dhamma supporter. In my view, the existence of Israel is now a given; but there are no longer any threats to Israel. A Palestinian nation should be created, with UN administered assurances, & Zionists should stop their goals of increasing the size of Israel, with settlements in the West Bank & Golan.
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:51 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by DNS » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:19 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:12 pm
Personally, I just judge based in good & bad kamma performed, as taught in the Holy Koran, where, on the Day of Judgment, each atoms weight of good & evil performed will be weighed up.
So you are a Muslim?

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by DooDoot » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:28 pm

DNS wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:19 pm
So you are a Muslim?

:jumping: OK, the below:
Beings are the owners of their actions, heir to their actions, born of their actions, related to their actions, and have their actions as their arbitrator. Whatever they do, for good or for evil, to that will they fall heir.

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by aflatun » Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:52 pm

DNS wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:19 pm
DooDoot wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:12 pm
Personally, I just judge based in good & bad kamma performed, as taught in the Holy Koran, where, on the Day of Judgment, each atoms weight of good & evil performed will be weighed up.
So you are a Muslim?
My guess is he's just doing his usual great job of putting things in the language of that tradition, and representing that tradition accurately and honestly. My two cents as a born Muslim who (by choice) actually walked that path(and yes there is a path), studied and practiced it's ethical, contemplative and wisdom components with masters and scholars of the living tradition and credits those endeavors with preparing me to finally embrace the Buddha.

Keep up the good work DooDoot :twothumbsup:

I just violated the 0th precept: posting in a political thread. Goddamnit.
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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Re: Trump. And why I hate him.

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 17, 2017 3:48 am

lyndon taylor wrote:
Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:39 pm
I don't think its wrong to hate evil!!
Which will suffer most, you or evil?
chownah

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