Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
Locked
binocular
Posts: 5454
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by binocular » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:24 pm

Lost in Translation? Pope Ponders an Update to Lord’s Prayer

ROME — It has been a question of theological debate and liturgical interpretation for years, and now Pope Francis has joined the discussion: Does the Lord’s Prayer, Christendom’s resonant petition to the Almighty, need an update?

In a new television interview, Pope Francis said the common rendering of one line in the prayer — “lead us not into temptation” — was “not a good translation” from ancient texts. “Do not let us fall into temptation,” he suggested, might be better because God does not lead people into temptation; Satan does.

“A father doesn’t do that,” the pope said. “He helps you get up right away. What induces into temptation is Satan.”

In essence, the pope said, the prayer, from the Book of Matthew, is asking God, “When Satan leads us into temptation, You please, give me a hand.”

French Catholics adopted such a linguistic change this week, and the pope suggested that Italian Catholics might want to follow suit.

While Francis’ remarks were not a decree to change the prayer, he has once again set off a debate on how far a pope can or should go in shaking up longstanding tradition, and even doctrine.

He has already angered Catholic traditionalists by reconsidering the prohibition on granting communion to the divorced and remarried, and by taking on issues like climate change and economic inequality, as well as with famously freewheeling remarks like “who am I to judge?” about gay people.

Francis’ idea on changing the Lord’s Prayer could unsettle some Catholics, who learn from childhood to recite the prayer, also called the “Our Father.”

Philip F. Lawler, editor of Catholic World News, a conservative website, said that while the pope’s critique about the translation of the line “isn’t unreasonable,” if Francis actually intends to change the prayer, “it’s very upsetting” because it is so deeply ingrained for Catholics.
/.../
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/08/worl ... ation.html
What do you think of this?

mal4mac
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Jul 11, 2013 1:47 pm

Re: Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by mal4mac » Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:34 pm

As God is omnipotent, by not stopping Satan from leading us unto temptation he *is* actually helping to lead us into temptation! Which is, surely, just as bad as leading us into temptation. For instance, if a known child snatcher tempts a child with a sweet should we just sit there and watch, or stop the child from being led into temptation? Or, if children are considered a special case, should we let a known rapist offer a woman friend a vodka, then take her away in a taxi, while we just sit back and watch?
- Mal

binocular
Posts: 5454
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by binocular » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:01 pm

mal4mac wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:34 pm
As God is omnipotent, by not stopping Satan from leading us unto temptation he *is* actually helping to lead us into temptation!
In most basic terms, if God runs this Universe, and as such, everyone and everything in it, then God runs Satan as well. So presenting Satan as some kind of God-independent factor surely is misleading.

JohnK
Posts: 609
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by JohnK » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:09 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:24 pm
What do you think of this?
My ex-Catholic 2 cents:
This re-stating seems logical from w/in that tradition -- as pointed out, the traditional wording is kind of bizarre actually.
It is revealing I think that millions of Catholics didn't catch this oddity even saying this prayer countless times.
I was raised catholic and said this prayer many times w/o noticing the oddity of that line -- I never remember it being discussed in countless sermons. I suspect that even those giving the sermons never thought about it -- most having been raised to just accept it w/o thinking.
It's a bit understandable that the higher-ups over the years (who perhaps do think about what prayers say) would not want the subject brought up: by the way, one of our central prayers suggests some odd things about how God operates.
So, I can see the point that many will be upset -- many take refuge in roteness, attachment to rites and rituals.
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

binocular
Posts: 5454
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by binocular » Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:34 pm

I grew up as a non-Catholic among Catholics, and it was precisely this part of the prayer that I took issue with from early on. The Catholics (but also other Christians with whom I have brought this up) tried to shut me down, and expected that I just go with the wording as it is; and that the failing was all mine, that I just didn't understand or lacked contrition etc. Which was another thing I took issue with.

I am quite sure that, like myself, many Catholics do/did notice the wording and that it suggests something bizzare; at least when they were younger, as younger people are more likely to take things literally.

But what I don't understand is what must have moved these people to insist in the traditional wording and how did they silence their questions and doubts.

User avatar
Sam Vara
Posts: 3997
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:42 pm
Location: Sussex, U.K.

Re: Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by Sam Vara » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:11 pm

The Anglican Ellicott's 1897 commentary might be useful here:
(13) Lead us not into temptation.—The Greek word includes the two thoughts which are represented in English by “trials,” i.e., sufferings which test or try, and “temptations,” allurements on the side of pleasure which tend to lead us into evil. Of these the former is the dominant meaning in the language of the New Testament, and is that of which we must think here. (Comp. Matthew 26:41.) We are taught not to think of the temptation in which lust meets opportunity as that into which God leads us (James 1:13-14); there is therefore something that shocks us in the thought of asking Him not to lead us into it. But trials of another kind, persecution, spiritual conflicts, agony of body or of spirit, these may come to us as a test or as a discipline. Should we shrink from these? An ideal stoicism, a perfected faith, would say, “No, let us accept them, and leave the issue in our Father’s hands.” But those who are conscious of their weakness cannot shake off the thought that they might fail in the conflict, and the cry of that conscious weakness is therefore, “Lead us not into such trials,” even as our Lord prayed, “If it be possible, let this cup pass away from me” (Matthew 26:39).
I doubt if many Christians thought that God deliberately guided their footsteps to unsalubrious venues just to check them out. But as this prayer is almost always rote-learned in infancy, I also doubt if many really reflected upon it at all. The Pope just seems to be playing very belated catch-up with language-change.

User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 11684
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by DNS » Mon Dec 11, 2017 5:23 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:24 pm
Lost in Translation? Pope Ponders an Update to Lord’s Prayer

He has already angered Catholic traditionalists by reconsidering the prohibition on granting communion to the divorced and remarried, and by taking on issues like climate change and economic inequality, as well as with famously freewheeling remarks like “who am I to judge?” about gay people.
What do you think of this?
Apologetics and liberalizing, pc-ing the religion. Like Sam Harris, I see it as changing the fundamentals of the religion to keep up with the times which keeps the religion alive, keeping people following the religion when some could have left it for secularism or possibly the Dhamma.

On the other hand, the liberalizing of religions does some good, calling for more egalitarianism in society, women's rights, etc, especially in strong traditional cultures where masses are not likely to leave the religion anyway, for the Dhamma. :tongue: And Buddhism has some mythological concepts too, which some modernists have shunned or tried to change as well.

dharmacorps
Posts: 472
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 7:33 pm

Re: Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by dharmacorps » Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:46 pm

Seems to me by putting satan in control of any of our bad actions, you could more easily avoid taking responsibility for your bad actions.

JohnK
Posts: 609
Joined: Wed Jan 06, 2016 11:06 pm
Location: Tetons, Wyoming, USA

Re: Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by JohnK » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:20 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:46 pm
Seems to me by putting satan in control of any of our bad actions, you could more easily avoid taking responsibility for your bad actions.
I can't believe I'm posting about Catholicism, but I don't think the idea is that Satan is "in control" of actions (nor is God for that matter). If Satan does somehow present temptations, the believer can choose whether or not to give in. I suspect there are modern Catholics who don't giver Satan a lot of thought -- recognizing that the world, by itself, presents plenty of temptation. If I recall, the suggested re-word doesn't specify the source of the temptation (Satan or world); though the comment gets Satan in the picture -- which is making the point very strongly that idea that God leads to temptation is way of course -- it's his nemesis that does it. I'm not a student of Catholic theology, so I'm reflecting understanding recalled from being a young person who was at least paying some attention in Catholic school.
Of course anyone can try to use Satan to justify bad actions, as in Flip Wilson's flippant "The devil made me do it!"
"...the practice is essentially a practice, and not a theory to be idly discussed...right view leaves unanswered many questions about the cosmos and the self, and directs your attention to what needs to be done to escape from the ravages of suffering." Thanissaro Bhikkhu, On The Path.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:46 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:24 pm
Francis’ idea on changing the Lord’s Prayer could unsettle some Catholics, who learn from childhood to recite the prayer, also called the “Our Father.”

Philip F. Lawler, editor of Catholic World News, a conservative website, said that while the pope’s critique about the translation of the line “isn’t unreasonable,” if Francis actually intends to change the prayer, “it’s very upsetting” because it is so deeply ingrained for Catholics.
Clinging to childish (childhood) wrong views, it seems:
James 1:13-15New International Version (NIV)
When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each person is tempted when they are dragged away (upadana) by their own evil desire (tanha) and enticed (nandi). Then, after desire has conceived (bhava), it gives birth (jati) to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown (jati), gives birth to death (marana).

User avatar
Pseudobabble
Posts: 682
Joined: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:11 am
Location: London

Re: Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by Pseudobabble » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:34 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:01 pm
mal4mac wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 3:34 pm
As God is omnipotent, by not stopping Satan from leading us unto temptation he *is* actually helping to lead us into temptation!
In most basic terms, if God runs this Universe, and as such, everyone and everything in it, then God runs Satan as well. So presenting Satan as some kind of God-independent factor surely is misleading.
Let's not even get started. Theistic religions are a logical clusterf***.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 2310
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:41 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:34 pm
Let's not even get started. Theistic religions are a logical clusterf***.
Christianity appears to be a polytheism, which incorporates the Buddhist Mara, in order to compensate for the illogical nature of Hebrew monotheism. While Hebrew monotheism is illogical, at least the Hebrews were honest about their God creating evil:
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created — and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground —for I regret that I have made them.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV
Is funny how 'monotheism' is praised by the world as something 'advanced' when, in reality, it is illogical.

chownah
Posts: 7377
Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Re: Lead us not into temptation -- not anymore?

Post by chownah » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:32 am

Wow, what a good pick up line....."being here with you I feel like I'm being led into temptation"....or something similar.....I'll have to work on this for awhile and develop some variations to match various situations...."baby, please lead me into temptation"...."do you know the way to temptation?....please lead"...."if we worked together do you think we could find the way to temptation?".....how about a house of sin called Temptation.....maybe a "temptation" tatoo in an appropriate place......
chownah

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot] and 56 guests