A thought on advice about quitting addictions and bad habits

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bodom
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Re: A thought on advice about quitting addictions and bad habits

Post by bodom » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:09 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:52 pm
bodom wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:42 pm
No addict wants to stop using. They just want to be able to use there drug of choice without the consequences that go with it. That is the denial of the addict. That this time will be different. The belief that they will one day be able to use responsibly. This is the great delusion of every addict, that next time will be different. I did this for 20 years. I had to hit my rock bottom. I had to suffer enough before I realized what my life had become and admit that I couldn't live this way anymore. Everyone has there rock bottom. Unfortunately some die before they do. You hit bottom when you stop digging.
If no more analysis of this topic is possible than this, and the problem has to be solved on such an intuitive, non-verbal level, by luck or sheer will, then ... that's horrible, a hopeless prospect.
Still, you have provided no answer to my question -- How does one want to want to live a life free from the suffering of addiction?
I'm not sure why you believe I need to provide you with an answer to your question. I am speaking of my own personal experience with getting sober. You have to be tired of all the suffering caused by your addiction. That provides all the motivation one needs.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

binocular
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Re: A thought on advice about quitting addictions and bad habits

Post by binocular » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:19 pm

bodom wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:09 pm
I'm not sure why you believe I need to provide you with an answer to your question.
You don't have to provide me with such an answer, but it would be nice if you would.
You speak with great confidence, hence I assume you have an answer to my question (but for some reason refuse to reveal it).
I am speaking of my own personal experience with getting sober. You have to be tired of all the suffering caused by your addiction. That provides all the motivation one needs.
By the time a person gets tired of all the suffering caused by their addiction, it could be too late and their addiction kills them, or at least incapacitates them to the point of no return.
Please don't take this the wrong way, but I think what you're suggesting is perfectionist and hopeless (although can be often heard in recovery circles).
I do believe there has to be another way, something more actionable than waiting for enough motivation to accumulate.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: A thought on advice about quitting addictions and bad habits

Post by binocular » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:33 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:05 pm
Yes, there is also the point that the path might not appear all that appealing to one gripped by addiction. There are some problems that we need to sort out first. My teacher says that we need to alleviate some of the obvious suffering in order to stop flailing around and become stable enough to practice.
Which seems common-sensical enough. But I find that if one tries to sort out those problems by force (such as quitting a bad habit by force of will), nothing gets accomplished.
I'm not saying this to criticize existing approaches, I'm actually trying to develop an entirely different, fully actionable approach to the problem of overcoming bad habits and addictions.
Perhaps in a Mahayana view.
Is Theravada any different in this? Please explain a bit more.
It is, insofar as there is no notion of "true nature" in Theravada the way there is in some Mahayana teachings.
There is AN 1.49-52, and this luminosity gets interpreted in different ways.
/.../ This is why the Buddha said that the mind is luminous, stained with defilements that come and go. Taken out of context, this statement might be construed as implying that the mind is inherently awakened. But in context the Buddha is simply saying that the mind, once stained, is not permanently stained. When the conditions for the stains are gone, the mind becomes luminous again. But this luminosity is not an awakened nature. As the Buddha states, this luminous mind can be developed. In the scheme of the four noble truths, if something is to be developed it's not the goal; it's part of the path to the goal. After this luminosity has been developed in the advanced stages of concentration, it's abandoned once it has completed its work in helping to pierce through ignorance.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu: Freedom From Buddha Nature
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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bodom
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Re: A thought on advice about quitting addictions and bad habits

Post by bodom » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:45 pm

binocular wrote: You don't have to provide me with such an answer, but it would be nice if you would.
You speak with great confidence, hence I assume you have an answer to my question (but for some reason refuse to reveal it).
Having struggled with addiction and having gotten sober, yes, I can speak with confidence. I have answered your question as to what worked for me from my own experience. I cannot provide anyone else there reason for wanting to get clean. All I know is that I wanted to stop suffering.
By the time a person gets tired of all the suffering caused by their addiction, it could be too late and their addiction kills them, or at least incapacitates them to the point of no return.
Which is why I've been saying from the get go that if one is unable to stop on there own, despite all the negative consequences, one needs medical intervention through detox and rehab.
don't take this the wrong way, but I think what you're suggesting is perfectionist and hopeless (although can be often heard in recovery circles).I do believe there has to be another way, something more actionable than waiting for enough motivation to accumulate.
That is your perception. For myself I either got sober or I would die. Bottom line. I chose to get sober. I put the drink and drugs down and I did the work. I didn't make excuses and I didn't need to be coddled (enabled) until I decided I was ready to get clean. I needed to get my ass kicked an say enough is enough. That is my own experience. If you and anyone else can find an easier softer way then great. Whatever works works.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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Sam Vara
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Re: A thought on advice about quitting addictions and bad habits

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:51 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:33 pm

It is, insofar as there is no notion of "true nature" in Theravada the way there is in some Mahayana teachings.
There is AN 1.49-52, and this luminosity gets interpreted in different ways.
Yes, I was talking more about the issue of ignorance, rather than its absence. It seems to play a similar role in the teachings of the Buddha as sin does in some types of Christianity, in that it is the fundamental besetting condition.

dharmacorps
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Re: A thought on advice about quitting addictions and bad habits

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:48 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 09, 2017 8:36 pm

I was once in a SMART recovery group. I had some doubts and questions about their approach; I think they glossed over and took for granted precisely those things that I think would need to be addressed in detail. Their approach didn't seem like it could help me at all. I expressed my concerns. The leader of the group told me that I am not allowed to ask questions about their methodology, and that if I will continue to do so, I will have to leave.
So, frankly, they struck me as yet another clique, not as a group actually intent on helping people.
Because they didn't work for you, they aren't intent on helping people? Those are 2 different things entirely...

Seems to be a recurring theme in your posts. Sounds like a lot of things don't work for you because of your doubts and questions, and you find yourself disappointed and sad about it (MBSR, many points on dhamma, ordained people). Sorry to hear that. I hope you find some things that do work for you.
:namaste:

chownah
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Re: A thought on advice about quitting addictions and bad habits

Post by chownah » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:38 am

Some people think that addicts are just normal people who have come under the spell of an addictive substance. I think that this is wrong and that thinking this will not lead to helpful advise for most addicts. Every year there are millions of people who take very addictive drugs in their treatment of disease and physical injury and yet it is a tiny minority of those people who have issues with addiction. Every study that I have read points to the fact that there is something going on (or not going on) in a minority of individuals which is the basis of the emergence of their addiction.

If society was compassionate it would view addiction as a sign that someone needs help with their life view and that the addiction is not the problem but only a sign of the problem.
chownah

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bodom
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Re: A thought on advice about quitting addictions and bad habits

Post by bodom » Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:57 am

chownah wrote:
Sun Dec 10, 2017 2:38 am
Some people think that addicts are just normal people who have come under the spell of an addictive substance. I think that this is wrong and that thinking this will not lead to helpful advise for most addicts. Every year there are millions of people who take very addictive drugs in their treatment of disease and physical injury and yet it is a tiny minority of those people who have issues with addiction. Every study that I have read points to the fact that there is something going on (or not going on) in a minority of individuals which is the basis of the emergence of their addiction.

If society was compassionate it would view addiction as a sign that someone needs help with their life view and that the addiction is not the problem but only a sign of the problem.
chownah
Absolutely. Drinking and drugging are but a symptom of much deeper underlying problem. Most notably low dopamine and serotonin levels. Majority of addicts, myself included in the past, self medicate to alleviate depression. There is also the genetic factor.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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