Buddhism and alcohol

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:07 pm

I'm sober for 4 days.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

perkele
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by perkele » Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:54 pm

oncereturner wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:07 pm
I'm sober for 4 days.
That's great to hear! Wishing you all the strength and confidence to carry on!

:buddha1: Silanisamsa-Jātaka

(Too bad they don't have it translated in Hungarian, this auld English is hard to read...)

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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:03 pm

perkele wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:54 pm
oncereturner wrote:
Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:07 pm
I'm sober for 4 days.
That's great to hear! Wishing you all the strength and confidence to carry on!

:buddha1: Silanisamsa-Jātaka

(Too bad they don't have it translated in Hungarian, this auld English is hard to read...)
Thank you, I understand the point. Reading is a lot more easier than expressing my thoughts. Olden English is no problem for me, I can guess what each word means, by reading the whole sentence.

I have only one real friend, who doesn't know anything about dhamma, but he has an inherent capability to tell right from wrong.

He says I can escape from the alcoholic madness, if I change job. He is right, hordes of enraged clients burden me with their problems. I need a stress free environment.

Going to hospital and rehab and then coming back to this job, is a guaranteed failure. So I try to change. I was in hospital 4x, since I accepted this job.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

dharmacorps
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by dharmacorps » Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:21 pm

The job isn't the problem, just like the girl wasn't the problem. The problem is you.

There are no stress free environments, jobs or anything else. You're on a Buddhist forum so I am sure you know that on some level.

Many alcoholics die doing exactly what you are saying--managing their alcoholism by having the "right job" or "right girl" or whatever external circumstance. Its a well trodden path familiar to any alcoholic-- and one littered with the bodies of alcoholics too proud to get help.

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bodom
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by bodom » Thu Dec 28, 2017 9:15 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:21 pm
The job isn't the problem, just like the girl wasn't the problem. The problem is you.

There are no stress free environments, jobs or anything else. You're on a Buddhist forum so I am sure you know that on some level.

Many alcoholics die doing exactly what you are saying--managing their alcoholism by having the "right job" or "right girl" or whatever external circumstance. Its a well trodden path familiar to any alcoholic-- and one littered with the bodies of alcoholics too proud to get help.
:goodpost:

I did just that for years and years and years wasting my life and always saying "I will kick tomorrow." For most tomorrow will never come.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

binocular
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by binocular » Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:12 am

oncereturner wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:03 pm
He says I can escape from the alcoholic madness, if I change job. He is right, hordes of enraged clients burden me with their problems.
That may very well be the case. However, it's not wise to quit a job unless one already has a new one.
For starters, it's usually prudent to develop new skills on the current job. There are many resources for how to deal with (problematic) clients on the internet, in libraries, one can attend seminars and workshops for this. People skills are worth investing in, as one needs them in most lines of work anyway.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:36 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:12 am
oncereturner wrote:
Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:03 pm
He says I can escape from the alcoholic madness, if I change job. He is right, hordes of enraged clients burden me with their problems.
That may very well be the case. However, it's not wise to quit a job unless one already has a new one.
For starters, it's usually prudent to develop new skills on the current job. There are many resources for how to deal with (problematic) clients on the internet, in libraries, one can attend seminars and workshops for this. People skills are worth investing in, as one needs them in most lines of work anyway.
I think i have the skills to manage clients. Their problems are solved quickly. Everyone is happy with my work, except for me. My friend said that I should search for a new job, while I'm still working here. Just as you said. Lowering the stress level is useful.

Bodom and Dharmacorps is right again. Learning at the university was very stressful, and then I had stressful jobs, and so on, but I didn't drink.

The problem is only me and my addiction. The more stress I have to cope with, the more alcohol I need. Next week I will meet my doctor and we will discuss this problem. I will ask for help.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

dharmacorps
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:27 pm

oncereturner wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 5:36 pm
Bodom and Dharmacorps is right again. Learning at the university was very stressful, and then I had stressful jobs, and so on, but I didn't drink.

The problem is only me and my addiction. The more stress I have to cope with, the more alcohol I need. Next week I will meet my doctor and we will discuss this problem. I will ask for help.
This is still wrong thinking attributing your drinking to stress as if somehow the stressors weren't there you wouldn't drink-- which isn't true. The problem is inside you, not the outside world. Where ever you go, there you are.

Believing these kinds of thoughts makes it easier for you to continue to not take responsibility for your drinking and behavior, and thus prevent you from getting sober.

binocular
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by binocular » Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:57 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Fri Dec 29, 2017 8:27 pm
This is still wrong thinking attributing your drinking to stress as if somehow the stressors weren't there you wouldn't drink-- which isn't true. The problem is inside you, not the outside world. Where ever you go, there you are.
It is not the case that a person can handle _any_ amount of difficulty, without this adversely affecting their wellbeing and productivity.

Some people, when they change jobs, get divorced, find another partner, move to another city etc. in fact do get better. Some don't, but some do. It's not prudent to dismiss the importance of external factors. They aren't everything, but they are not irrelevant either.

It is only in a very ideal, spiritual sense that a person should be able to handle any kind of difficulty calmly. The Buddha didn't have to work 12-hour shifts.

I think the actual problem that many addicts are caught up in is tunnel vision and black-and-white, either-or thinking. That is, they tend to think that the solution to their problem is either A, or B, but not perhaps C or D. They don't even consider that the solution to their problem might be a combination of A, B, C, and D.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

dharmacorps
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:01 pm

What I am saying is these superficial changes are a distraction from real change/recovery. Alcoholics do not "get better" by changing jobs or partners. They may even quit drinking for a time, but the inner problem is still there and will thus come back, usually worse. Anyone with any substantial experience in recovery, talking to and connecting with addicts would know this. One would also know the damage that can come from indulging alcoholics in their habit of attributing all their problems to outside factors and never facing themselves, the true problem.

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Stiphan
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by Stiphan » Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:57 pm

Alcohol is so disgusting and harmful as to be beyond belief. I've only tried a couple of glasses of a few beverages, just to try it, the taste was terrible, except wine. Overall, I've drunk less than 20 glasses of alcohol in my life, all in my teens before becoming a Buddhist.

Drugs are even worse, and I've not even touched them.

Habits and addictions are difficult to break, but it's worth trying as these things are so bad and harmful, beyond imagination. Not just that, you have to pay for these harmful substances! Avoid cigarettes too!

auto
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by auto » Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:15 pm

Stiphan wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 8:57 pm
Alcohol is so disgusting and harmful as to be beyond belief. I've only tried a couple of glasses of a few beverages, just to try it, the taste was terrible, except wine. Overall, I've drunk less than 20 glasses of alcohol in my life, all in my teens before becoming a Buddhist.

Drugs are even worse, and I've not even touched them.

Habits and addictions are difficult to break, but it's worth trying as these things are so bad and harmful, beyond imagination. Not just that, you have to pay for these harmful substances! Avoid cigarettes too!
The bad and harmful what you experience when trying alcohol is like first bodily reaction to cold water. Just get over the repulsiveness and you have different sensation what is not repulsiveness but stabile wave like experience, bliss.

To be able to drink fully drunk like lose conscience is like bodily reaction to hot water, its inviting and can't stop drinking anymore to the point of not want to move the body unless it is hot water: alcohol, mates, drugs, dangerous behavior etc.
-------------------
When you will see, have knowledge about craving, it is then internal burn and you would know yourself that adding more fuel like alcohol doesn't take the craving away. Therefore you have repulsiveness. If you don't see craving then you can't stop drinking till the end of not be able to use body.

Both variants being alcoholic or fully sober-never-drink alcohol are same weight on a scale. There are other layers in play, what decide where you end at.
Over time the repulsiveness to alcohol disappear, think of it as losing merit to know the subtle.

binocular
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by binocular » Mon Jan 01, 2018 2:25 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 7:01 pm
What I am saying is these superficial changes are a distraction from real change/recovery. Alcoholics do not "get better" by changing jobs or partners. They may even quit drinking for a time, but the inner problem is still there and will thus come back, usually worse. Anyone with any substantial experience in recovery, talking to and connecting with addicts would know this. One would also know the damage that can come from indulging alcoholics in their habit of attributing all their problems to outside factors and never facing themselves, the true problem.
How convenient for the one who gives advice to alcoholics!
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Wed Jan 03, 2018 4:50 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:57 am

It is not the case that a person can handle _any_ amount of difficulty, without this adversely affecting their wellbeing and productivity.

Some people, when they change jobs, get divorced, find another partner, move to another city etc. in fact do get better. Some don't, but some do. It's not prudent to dismiss the importance of external factors. They aren't everything, but they are not irrelevant either.

It is only in a very ideal, spiritual sense that a person should be able to handle any kind of difficulty calmly. The Buddha didn't have to work 12-hour shifts.

I think the actual problem that many addicts are caught up in is tunnel vision and black-and-white, either-or thinking. That is, they tend to think that the solution to their problem is either A, or B, but not perhaps C or D. They don't even consider that the solution to their problem might be a combination of A, B, C, and D.
I was at the doctor. I told him that my addiction is getting worse, however I didn't drink on the holiday. Now I drink only after work, because I feel very tired and sad. I don't need alcohol on weekend right now.

He said I shouldn't go to rehab, because it is just a temporary solution. The underlying causes will still exist, and I will relapse. I was surprised, because other doctors said to go to rehab.

He recommended AA. He also said I must change job,  this one is too stressful for me. He prescribed a lot of benzodiazepine.

In this debate I agree with Binocular. High stress levels lead to some kind of addictions for many people.

I'm even more confused, but I will go to AA. I will try to cure myself with rational thinking, herbs and meditation.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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bodom
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by bodom » Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:25 am

This is not a debate. People are giving you advice to save your life. I have been through it and I can only tell you what worked for this hardcore addict and alcoholic after trying everything else. In the end you will make your own decisions how to go about it. Remember this though... A smart man learns from his own mistakes but a wise man learns from others. Take heed to all of our advice. Good luck.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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