Buddhism and alcohol

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binocular
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by binocular » Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:59 am

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:11 am
Oncereturner shared his problem and everyone beginning with David and ending with me have given him support and advice. Why bad mouth us?
Because there is exactly one true theory of addiction (and because it's The Truth, it's not a mere theory anyway), and exactly one true approach to ending addiction, and everything else is heresy.
:woohoo:
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:26 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 8:25 pm
Great job Oncereturner. I am sorry about the bad doctors and bad advice you get in real life and on this forum. Keep persisting and go to rehab. :anjali:
Thank you. Without the help of this forum, I'd never realize that I have to go to rehab.

For today, my plan is not to drink, simple yet very difficult, maybe it's not impossible.

:anjali:
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:41 am

They repair the pavement with asphalt, next to my window, with heavy machinery. The stench and noise is horrible. They will work for a month!

Meditate and relax, if you can...
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

dharmacorps
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by dharmacorps » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:37 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:11 am

Who are you to say we are giving bad advice?
A garden variety alcoholic in recovery who has gotten help from other people to solve his problem. A guy who has heard even one iota of the heap of scientific research about addiction.

But I don't need to be either of those to tell you, your now moderator-deleted "advice": Telling an alcoholic they don't have a disease and can continue drinking normally is just about the worst thing anybody can say to anyone. Amazingly irresponsible wrong speech, even for you.

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No_Mind
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by No_Mind » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:55 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:37 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:11 am

Who are you to say we are giving bad advice?
A garden variety alcoholic in recovery who has gotten help from other people to solve his problem. A guy who has heard even one iota of the heap of scientific research about addiction.

But I don't need to be either of those to tell you, your now moderator-deleted "advice": Telling an alcoholic they don't have a disease and can continue drinking normally is just about the worst thing anybody can say to anyone. Amazingly irresponsible wrong speech, even for you.
Alcoholism is not a disease .. it is a choice. Just as smoking is not a disease .. it is a choice.

In my own experience an alcoholic can return to social drinking.

I have noted now that my post has been deleted. And there is no good reason for it. At times moderators can be unusually daft.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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bodom
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by bodom » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:11 pm

Those of us in recovery from alcohol have a saying. Once a cucumber becomes a pickle, it can no longer go back to being a cucumber.We have pickled ourselves. There's no going back.

I am an alcoholic and have long term sobriety free from from alcohol. I work with others who are struggling and on the verge of death due to there alcoholism. In my experience I tried over and over and over, for many years, to drink like a normal person. It never happened for me. It never happened for the people I have worked with. It never happened for those who have already drunk themselves to death. I have never seen it done.

If an alcoholic wishes to be free from alcohol for good, such as oncereturner has said, over and over on this thread, then to tell him that it would be OK to return to drinking after a period of time is almost certainly signing his death warrant.

If one wants to give advice then give advice on complete abstinence. That is what is being sought by oncereturner, not how he may be able to drink again in the future .

:namaste:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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No_Mind
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by No_Mind » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:14 pm

bodom wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:11 pm
Those of us in recovery from alcohol have a saying. Once a cucumber becomes a pickle, it can no longer go back to being a cucumber. I am an alcoholic and have long term sobriety free from from alcohol.

I work with others who are struggling and on the verge of death due to there alcoholism. In my experience I trued over and over and over, for many years, to drink like a normal drinker. It never happened for me. It never happened for the people I have worked with. It never happened for those who have already drunk themselves to death. I have never seen it done.

If an alcoholic wishes to be free from alcohol for good, such as oncereturner has done, over and over on this thread, then to tell someone that it would be OK to return to drinking after a period of time is almost certainly signing his death warrant.

If one wants to give advice then give advice on complete abstinence. That is what is being sought by oncereturner, not how he may be able to drink again in the future .

:namaste:
I never wrote that. I wrote about my experience
Late to this topic .. I drank a pint of whiskey daily for five years in my twenties and gave it up. I still drink an occasional peg but with friends (birthday and such)

Alcoholism is not a disease and alcoholic can return to social drinking.
I should have written "In my experience alcoholism is not a disease and alcoholic can return to social drinking."

That does not warranty that the whole 350 word post be deleted. Those words could have been added or that line deleted.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:47 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:55 pm
dharmacorps wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:37 pm
No_Mind wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:11 am

Who are you to say we are giving bad advice?
A garden variety alcoholic in recovery who has gotten help from other people to solve his problem. A guy who has heard even one iota of the heap of scientific research about addiction.

But I don't need to be either of those to tell you, your now moderator-deleted "advice": Telling an alcoholic they don't have a disease and can continue drinking normally is just about the worst thing anybody can say to anyone. Amazingly irresponsible wrong speech, even for you.
Alcoholism is not a disease .. it is a choice. Just as smoking is not a disease .. it is a choice.

In my own experience an alcoholic can return to social drinking.

I have noted now that my post has been deleted. And there is no good reason for it. At times moderators can be unusually daft.

:namaste:
I will raise with the other moderators the issue of offering advice on issues of health and addiction, or where a specialist knowledge may be required in order to prevent harm.

In the mean time, could people please refrain from personalised attacks? They don't help.

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bodom
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by bodom » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:43 pm

No_Mind wrote:Alcoholism is not a disease and alcoholic can return to social drinking.

I should have written "In my experience alcoholism is not a disease and alcoholic can return to social drinking."

That does not warranty that the whole 350 word post be deleted. Those words could have been added or that line deleted.

:namaste:
Hi no-mind.

Telling an alcoholic seeking help from alcohol that they can someday return to normal drinking is very dangerous advice. And at the least it is encouraging someone to break the fifth precept. Unacceptable on a Buddhist forum.

:namaste:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:02 am

bodom wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:11 pm
Those of us in recovery from alcohol have a saying. Once a cucumber becomes a pickle, it can no longer go back to being a cucumber.We have pickled ourselves. There's no going back.

I am an alcoholic and have long term sobriety free from from alcohol. I work with others who are struggling and on the verge of death due to there alcoholism. In my experience I tried over and over and over, for many years, to drink like a normal person. It never happened for me. It never happened for the people I have worked with. It never happened for those who have already drunk themselves to death. I have never seen it done.

If an alcoholic wishes to be free from alcohol for good, such as oncereturner has said, over and over on this thread, then to tell him that it would be OK to return to drinking after a period of time is almost certainly signing his death warrant.

If one wants to give advice then give advice on complete abstinence. That is what is being sought by oncereturner, not how he may be able to drink again in the future .

:namaste:
I agree, despite my determination, and all willpower, I drank a lot of beer. Quite remember how many. I can't even tell why, it happened. It's obvious, that I shouldn't drink a drop of beer rest of my life. One drink, and everything starts again. It's impossible to do it on my own, just like the doctor and Bodom said. It's a disease, doctor said the same as Bodom, he didn't see anyone to do it on his own. I've already informed my boss that I have to go to "medical examination ". I don't like to go into futile discussions, whether it's a disease or not, it is. I want to regain my health, I will do my best to get into rehab. There's no option, no choice, however I like my job, but health is foremost. It's not my job to manage work, boss will do this. It's very likely I will not lose my job, because I'm considered as a good workforce, they need me. I'd like to recover and do my job as a healthy person, and of course I don't want to die. I guess they don't want it too. It's not about keeping precepts, it's about life or death. Managers still don't know what is coming, but again if they want they can rearrange workforce, as it's a big company. Everyone can suffer from health issues. By the way, they are responsible ruining my life, burdening me with impossible deadlines and stress. And additcion ran out of my control.

I will go to addiction specialist, it's the most important now, to get help at rehab.

:anjali:
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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No_Mind
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by No_Mind » Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:41 am

bodom wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:43 pm
No_Mind wrote:Alcoholism is not a disease and alcoholic can return to social drinking.

I should have written "In my experience alcoholism is not a disease and alcoholic can return to social drinking."

That does not warranty that the whole 350 word post be deleted. Those words could have been added or that line deleted.

:namaste:
Hi no-mind.

Telling an alcoholic seeking help from alcohol that they can someday return to normal drinking is very dangerous advice. And at the least it is encouraging someone to break the fifth precept. Unacceptable on a Buddhist forum.

:namaste:
My error. I did not know the disease theory of addiction was taken so seriously in the West. I thought it is taken as a basis but human free will is not totally done away with.

I do not know if I can make you understand but anyone saying that here (India) is going to get one hard slap from parents, spouse or friends. It is a cultural difference.

I wish oncereturner all the luck. I hope he becomes sober soon and has a long, alcohol free life.
At times moderators can be unusually daft.
My apologies for this line. It was written in haste and anger. Not desirable qualities when conversing on a Dhamma forum.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Mar 28, 2018 3:53 am

Greetings,

:goodpost:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

binocular
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:26 am

No_Mind wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:41 am
My error. I did not know the disease theory of addiction was taken so seriously in the West. I thought it is taken as a basis but human free will is not totally done away with.

I do not know if I can make you understand but anyone saying that here (India) is going to get one hard slap from parents, spouse or friends. It is a cultural difference.
Agreed. The "once an alcoholic always an alcoholic" and "alcoholism is a disease" are American conceptions, culturally specific. They're not universal.

In the context of Buddhism, there is also no reason to think that alcoholism is somehow one of those things that are not impermanent; or that when it comes to alcoholism and depression, we must forget about Buddhism and unquestioningly subscribe to the currently popular notions about these things.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:43 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:26 am
The "once an alcoholic always an alcoholic" and "alcoholism is a disease" are American conceptions, culturally specific. They're not universal.
They might be true, though. Americans have been known to get things right from time to time.

binocular
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:55 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:43 am
They might be true, though. Americans have been known to get things right from time to time.
In that case, it comes down to unquestioningly trusting some third party to be the one who knows best what goes on inside of you.
Doing that is always problematic.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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