Buddhism and alcohol

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
Saengnapha
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by Saengnapha » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:57 am

oncereturner wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 12:02 am
bodom wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 5:11 pm
Those of us in recovery from alcohol have a saying. Once a cucumber becomes a pickle, it can no longer go back to being a cucumber.We have pickled ourselves. There's no going back.

I am an alcoholic and have long term sobriety free from from alcohol. I work with others who are struggling and on the verge of death due to there alcoholism. In my experience I tried over and over and over, for many years, to drink like a normal person. It never happened for me. It never happened for the people I have worked with. It never happened for those who have already drunk themselves to death. I have never seen it done.

If an alcoholic wishes to be free from alcohol for good, such as oncereturner has said, over and over on this thread, then to tell him that it would be OK to return to drinking after a period of time is almost certainly signing his death warrant.

If one wants to give advice then give advice on complete abstinence. That is what is being sought by oncereturner, not how he may be able to drink again in the future .

:namaste:
I agree, despite my determination, and all willpower, I drank a lot of beer. Quite remember how many. I can't even tell why, it happened. It's obvious, that I shouldn't drink a drop of beer rest of my life. One drink, and everything starts again. It's impossible to do it on my own, just like the doctor and Bodom said. It's a disease, doctor said the same as Bodom, he didn't see anyone to do it on his own. I've already informed my boss that I have to go to "medical examination ". I don't like to go into futile discussions, whether it's a disease or not, it is. I want to regain my health, I will do my best to get into rehab. There's no option, no choice, however I like my job, but health is foremost. It's not my job to manage work, boss will do this. It's very likely I will not lose my job, because I'm considered as a good workforce, they need me. I'd like to recover and do my job as a healthy person, and of course I don't want to die. I guess they don't want it too. It's not about keeping precepts, it's about life or death. Managers still don't know what is coming, but again if they want they can rearrange workforce, as it's a big company. Everyone can suffer from health issues. By the way, they are responsible ruining my life, burdening me with impossible deadlines and stress. And additcion ran out of my control.

I will go to addiction specialist, it's the most important now, to get help at rehab.

:anjali:
I support your decision 100% and the best of luck to you. Just do it.

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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:55 am

No_Mind wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 1:41 am
bodom wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:43 pm
No_Mind wrote:Alcoholism is not a disease and alcoholic can return to social drinking.

I should have written "In my experience alcoholism is not a disease and alcoholic can return to social drinking."

That does not warranty that the whole 350 word post be deleted. Those words could have been added or that line deleted.

:namaste:
Hi no-mind.

Telling an alcoholic seeking help from alcohol that they can someday return to normal drinking is very dangerous advice. And at the least it is encouraging someone to break the fifth precept. Unacceptable on a Buddhist forum.

:namaste:
My error. I did not know the disease theory of addiction was taken so seriously in the West. I thought it is taken as a basis but human free will is not totally done away with.

I do not know if I can make you understand but anyone saying that here (India) is going to get one hard slap from parents, spouse or friends. It is a cultural difference.

I wish oncereturner all the luck. I hope he becomes sober soon and has a long, alcohol free life.
At times moderators can be unusually daft.
My apologies for this line. It was written in haste and anger. Not desirable qualities when conversing on a Dhamma forum.

:namaste:
Thank you. It's officially labelled as a disease, called alcohol use disorder (AUD), here in Europe it's also considered as an illness. In my experience, it's one of the worst addictions.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:30 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:55 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:43 am
They might be true, though. Americans have been known to get things right from time to time.
In that case, it comes down to unquestioningly trusting some third party to be the one who knows best what goes on inside of you.
Doing that is always problematic.
Sometimes, a third party is less problematic than a first party. Trusting others is necessary when one doesn't have the skills or knowledge to sort things out for oneself, and is often a very uplifting and wholesome experience.

binocular
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by binocular » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:34 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:30 am
Trusting others is necessary when one doesn't have the skills or knowledge to sort things out for oneself, and is often a very uplifting and wholesome experience.
In my experience, that is rarely so.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:54 am

binocular wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:34 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:30 am
Trusting others is necessary when one doesn't have the skills or knowledge to sort things out for oneself, and is often a very uplifting and wholesome experience.
In my experience, that is rarely so.
Then may it be more so in future.

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bodom
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by bodom » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:48 pm

binocular wrote:In the context of Buddhism, there is also no reason to think that alcoholism is somehow one of those things that are not impermanent; or that when it comes to alcoholism and depression, we must forget about Buddhism and unquestioningly subscribe to the currently popular notions about these things.
Except alcoholism, craving run rampant, is perfectly inline with paticcasamupaddha. I am one of the few alcoholics that does not necessarily hold the view that alcoholism is a disease. I don't know if it is or not. I prefer to look at it as dis-ease. All I know is that if I pick up a drink I'm screwed and I will not stop. So it is better to never pick up the first drink. That's enough for me.

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

dharmacorps
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by dharmacorps » Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:12 pm

Whether alcoholism is a disease or not is really not the point. It is what is and is not skillful to say to those struggling with what could broadly be called an addiction or substance abuse problem, and what is and is not right speech from a Buddhist perspective. This isn't a geographic or cultural thing.

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bodom
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by bodom » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:51 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 6:12 pm
Whether alcoholism is a disease or not is really not the point. It is what is and is not skillful to say to those struggling with what could broadly be called an addiction or substance abuse problem, and what is and is not right speech from a Buddhist perspective. This isn't a geographic or cultural thing.
:goodpost:

:anjali:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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oncereturner
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Location: Hungary

Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:33 pm

bodom wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:48 pm
binocular wrote:In the context of Buddhism, there is also no reason to think that alcoholism is somehow one of those things that are not impermanent; or that when it comes to alcoholism and depression, we must forget about Buddhism and unquestioningly subscribe to the currently popular notions about these things.
Except alcoholism, craving run rampant, is perfectly inline with paticcasamupaddha. I am one of the few alcoholics that does not necessarily hold the view that alcoholism is a disease. I don't know if it is or not. I prefer to look at it as dis-ease. All I know is that if I pick up a drink I'm screwed and I will not stop. So it is better to never pick up the first drink. That's enough for me.

:namaste:
Definition says that if you can't stop at free will, then its a disease. However it's a discussion in vain, because we both know it's about life of death. Craving, craving... neverending.. until death. I'm in the following situation, every conditions are present:

"In a medical context, alcoholism is said to exist when two or more of the following conditions is present: a person drinks large amounts over a long time period, has difficulty cutting down, acquiring and drinking alcohol takes up a great deal of time, alcohol is strongly desired, usage results in not fulfilling responsibilities, usage results in social problems, usage results in health problems, usage results in risky situations, withdrawal occurs when stopping, and alcohol tolerance has occurred with use."
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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one_awakening
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by one_awakening » Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:03 am

Yes get professional help. Also try and meditate everyday if possible. This will train your mind to just observe the craving arise and pass away without acting on it.

You may only be able to observe the craving for a minute or two to start with, but that's OK. The more you meditate the stronger your mental discipline becomes.
“You only lose what you cling to”

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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:09 pm

one_awakening wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:03 am
Yes get professional help. Also try and meditate everyday if possible. This will train your mind to just observe the craving arise and pass away without acting on it.

You may only be able to observe the craving for a minute or two to start with, but that's OK. The more you meditate the stronger your mental discipline becomes.
It doesn't work, Bodom was right, it's like a runaway train, absolute madness, no way to stop this. Only hope is rehab now. I'm about to lose my job, but health is foremost.

My body is trembling, my head explodes, I feel pain everywhere.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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bodom
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Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by bodom » Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:26 pm

oncereturner wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:09 pm
one_awakening wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:03 am
Yes get professional help. Also try and meditate everyday if possible. This will train your mind to just observe the craving arise and pass away without acting on it.

You may only be able to observe the craving for a minute or two to start with, but that's OK. The more you meditate the stronger your mental discipline becomes.
It doesn't work, Bodom was right, it's like a runaway train, absolute madness, no way to stop this. Only hope is rehab now. I'm about to lose my job, but health is foremost.

My body is trembling, my head explodes, I feel pain everywhere.
Yes you absolutely will need medical intervention in order to stop drinking if it has gotten to this point. Have you spoken with any detox facilities yet?

:namaste:
To study is to know the texts,
To practice is to know your defilements,
To attain the goal is to know and let go.

- Ajahn Lee Dhammadharo


With no struggling, no thinking,
the mind, still,
will see cause and effect
vanishing in the Void.
Attached to nothing, letting go:
Know that this is the way
to allay all stress.

- Upasika Kee Nanayan

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oncereturner
Posts: 269
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Location: Hungary

Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:13 am

bodom wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:26 pm
oncereturner wrote:
Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:09 pm
one_awakening wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:03 am
Yes get professional help. Also try and meditate everyday if possible. This will train your mind to just observe the craving arise and pass away without acting on it.

You may only be able to observe the craving for a minute or two to start with, but that's OK. The more you meditate the stronger your mental discipline becomes.
It doesn't work, Bodom was right, it's like a runaway train, absolute madness, no way to stop this. Only hope is rehab now. I'm about to lose my job, but health is foremost.

My body is trembling, my head explodes, I feel pain everywhere.
Yes you absolutely will need medical intervention in order to stop drinking if it has gotten to this point. Have you spoken with any detox facilities yet?

:namaste:
Yes, I agree. Next week I have an appointment in the rehab facility for an interview. Basically there's no real detox in this country.

In the meantime I'm sober for 35 hours, at the moment I'm better.

I have a dilemma. If I go to rehab for 1-2 months, my boss told me that I will lose my job, and it's serious. It's a stressful job. It means joblessness and financial problems. I don't know what to do. And suggestions?

:anjali:
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

Garrib
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by Garrib » Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:47 am

Do you have any friends/family who can help you in case you end up without a job??

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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Fri Apr 06, 2018 7:16 pm

Garrib wrote:
Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:47 am
Do you have any friends/family who can help you in case you end up without a job??
No, I have have to find for another job on my own, which is not easy.

I hate this job (a Buddhist shouldn't say this, but lying is unwholesome too). It's hard to explain, this company is like a maffia, and I feel a sinner for working for these people. If I continue with this job, it's guaranteed alcoholism, and feeling of anger. They force people to buy unwanted stuff, you know telemarketing, and all we get back that we are like rats, a criminal gang. I feel it's true. I can't practice dhamma in these circumstances.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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