Buddhism and alcohol

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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dharmacorps
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:19 pm

I can also vouch personally for what Bodom said. Controlled drinking doesn't work for alcoholics. It is never 2 drinks.

binocular
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:21 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:19 pm
I can also vouch personally for what Bodom said. Controlled drinking doesn't work for alcoholics. It is never 2 drinks.
But it also doesn't mean that people who can have 2 drinks and can leave it at that, have such internal control that enables them to do so.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

dharmacorps
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:32 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:21 pm
dharmacorps wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:19 pm
I can also vouch personally for what Bodom said. Controlled drinking doesn't work for alcoholics. It is never 2 drinks.
But it also doesn't mean that people who can have 2 drinks and can leave it at that, have such internal control that enables them to do so.
Who knows what they have-- it is speculative and doesn't really matter if you are an alcoholic in the throes of addiction asking for help. If they are able to stop drinking at 2 drinks they have something alcoholics don't.

binocular
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:05 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:32 pm
Who knows what they have-- it is speculative and doesn't really matter if you are an alcoholic in the throes of addiction asking for help. If they are able to stop drinking at 2 drinks they have something alcoholics don't.
It matters, inasmuch it informs the attitude toward alcohol for the addict.
If they are able to stop drinking at 2 drinks they have something alcoholics don't.
And it seems that what they have is just mere luck. Not skill, not wisdom, not good coping strategies. Just luck. And therefore, they aren't to be looked up to as role models or as examples of normalcy.

Just like, for example, a person who has never had any weight problems doesn't necessarily have the skills required not to become overweight.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by binocular » Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:10 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:32 pm
If they are able to stop drinking at 2 drinks they have something alcoholics don't.
The problem is that this kind of view can be an example of glorifying "normal drinkers" and stigmatizing alcoholics.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

dharmacorps
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:24 pm

binocular wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 7:10 pm
dharmacorps wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:32 pm
If they are able to stop drinking at 2 drinks they have something alcoholics don't.
The problem is that this kind of view can be an example of glorifying "normal drinkers" and stigmatizing alcoholics.
No, that would only be true if one didn't understand addiction issues and misinterprets what is being discussed.

James Tan
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by James Tan » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:31 am

:anjali:
Last edited by James Tan on Tue Jan 30, 2018 1:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

binocular
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by binocular » Sat Jan 13, 2018 12:26 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 9:24 pm
No, that would only be true if one didn't understand addiction issues and misinterprets what is being discussed.
You're just illustrating my point.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

apophenia
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by apophenia » Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:02 pm

oncereturner wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:48 pm
I failed, it's game over. I give up the fight against Mara. This demon is invincible. I go to samsara, in my next life I will succeed.
This is a very good realization. You admit that you cannot control your drinking. This is very fertile ground. This is step one: "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, and that our lives had become unmanagable."

You seem to resist the idea of giving AA a good try. Maybe you can read the Big Book and the Twelve and Twelve. It's no substitute for meetings, but it might still help. You can read them for free on the internet.

Read this: it's the first step in the 12/12, a very short read. https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_step1.pdf

If you are interested, read this: https://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/alcoholics-anonymous
If you find it boring or difficult, read the personal stories at the end.

:hug:

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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:44 am

Garrib wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:48 am
oncereturner wrote:
Thu Jan 11, 2018 11:48 pm
I failed, it's game over. I give up the fight against Mara. This demon is invincible. I go to samsara, in my next life I will succeed.
wrong choice my friend!!!! Take it one day at a time.

You know how meditation teachers always talk about the breath - it doesn't matter how many times your attention slips away, what matters is that whenever you recognize that your mind is wandering, you bring it back to the breath. At the same time, your goal is always to KEEP the attention on the breath (so you can develop better mindfulness and hopefully sometime: enter jhana). Perhaps the same is true for alcoholism and other addictions. No matter how many times you slip up, as soon as you recognize your error, you brings yourself BACK to your commitment to get sober. If you keep doing this, and keep up with your intention and effort, then hopefully you will reach the point that you are actually sober.
I use breathing techniques for relaxation and sleep. Sometimes the breathing gets out of control. In crowded places I start coughing. I try to hold breath, but I can't stop it. On the crowded bus, I often feel sick, and sweat. When practice breathing, I suddenly start coughing. The panic is exhausting every morning.

The office is crowded too. I breathe in what others breathe out. Coughing again. Now I have a medicine against it, hope it will help. We should fill the lung with fresh air.

I've seen a video, monks meditating and chanting next to the street somewhere in India. Their place was noisy and polluted. It's possible to achieve peace of mind in these circumstances, but I guess it takes practice.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:17 pm

bodom wrote:
Fri Jan 12, 2018 4:47 pm

Hi oncereturner

Unfortunately there is no such thing as controlled drinking for an alcoholic. It sounds like a great idea and literally all alcoholics have tried it including me. This is clearly a sign that you have a major problem. Most people do not have to worry about controlled drinking. They can take the drink or leave it. Not an alcoholic for One drink is too many and a thousand is never enough. There must be complete abstinence from alcohol.

If you want to try to reduce your intake until stopping completely then by all means do what you have to do, but Please do not buy into the illusion that you can control your drinking because it is obvious that you cannot.

This is the great obsession of every alcoholic: that they can somehow, someday, control there drinking again. It doesn't happen. Many drink themselves into the grave trying.

:namaste:
Hello Bodom

I see. Last week I was sick, laying in bed with fever.
I planned to go to AA and ask for help at rehab, but on Monday I had to work 12 hours. It was a disaster. Every day it was overtime.

Maybe next week will be easier. I found out that rehab and AA is at the same place, which is near. I can do it at the same time, if they don't burden me with overtime.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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oncereturner
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:08 pm

apophenia wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:02 pm

This is a very good realization. You admit that you cannot control your drinking. This is very fertile ground. This is step one: "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, and that our lives had become unmanagable."

You seem to resist the idea of giving AA a good try. Maybe you can read the Big Book and the Twelve and Twelve. It's no substitute for meetings, but it might still help. You can read them for free on the internet.

Read this: it's the first step in the 12/12, a very short read. https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_step1.pdf

If you are interested, read this: https://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/alcoholics-anonymous
If you find it boring or difficult, read the personal stories at the end.

:hug:
Hi. I was at the AA meeting, it was disappointing, just like the previous one. They admitted losing control, but don't provide a solution.

The rehab staff didn't care about me. It's not easy to get in. I'm about to find a way to enter a rehabilitation program.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

auto
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by auto » Tue Jan 23, 2018 9:48 pm


apophenia
Posts: 14
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Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by apophenia » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:37 pm

oncereturner wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:08 pm
apophenia wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:02 pm

This is a very good realization. You admit that you cannot control your drinking. This is very fertile ground. This is step one: "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, and that our lives had become unmanagable."

You seem to resist the idea of giving AA a good try. Maybe you can read the Big Book and the Twelve and Twelve. It's no substitute for meetings, but it might still help. You can read them for free on the internet.

Read this: it's the first step in the 12/12, a very short read. https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_step1.pdf

If you are interested, read this: https://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/alcoholics-anonymous
If you find it boring or difficult, read the personal stories at the end.

:hug:
Hi. I was at the AA meeting, it was disappointing, just like the previous one. They admitted losing control, but don't provide a solution.

The rehab staff didn't care about me. It's not easy to get in. I'm about to find a way to enter a rehabilitation program.
Hey oncereturner, what a shame that the AA meeting you went to was disappointing. Can you go to a different meeting? Do you have a lot of choice in the area where you live? I'm very lucky in that there are around 30 meetings a week where I live. If you don't have a lot of options, you could try attending an online meeting. There are online meetings both for AA and for Refuge Recovery, I think.

Normally, in AA-land, the steps are the solution. You don't regain control over the amount of alchohol you consume, but you solve the problem by giving up the fight, ie. abstinence, and a "spiritual solution", ie. the steps - basically a combination of moral inventory, making amends, meditation and/or prayer, journaling, and service/helping others. But it's not a quick fix, it does take some time to work the steps, and it does take a daily (or almost daily) commitment. For me, this consists in meditation, some prayer/intention-setting/metta, journaling (aka 10th step), and ideally a meeting or some form of contact with another alcoholic/sponsor/sponsee. But I'm much happier, much more equanimous, kinder toward myself and others, and sober. (As opposed to a mixture of irritable, discontent, resentful, and drunk or hungover.)

:heart:

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oncereturner
Posts: 269
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Location: Hungary

Re: Buddhism and alcohol

Post by oncereturner » Mon Jan 29, 2018 10:23 pm

apophenia wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:37 pm
oncereturner wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:08 pm
apophenia wrote:
Sat Jan 13, 2018 2:02 pm

This is a very good realization. You admit that you cannot control your drinking. This is very fertile ground. This is step one: "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, and that our lives had become unmanagable."

You seem to resist the idea of giving AA a good try. Maybe you can read the Big Book and the Twelve and Twelve. It's no substitute for meetings, but it might still help. You can read them for free on the internet.

Read this: it's the first step in the 12/12, a very short read. https://www.aa.org/assets/en_US/en_step1.pdf

If you are interested, read this: https://www.aa.org/pages/en_US/alcoholics-anonymous
If you find it boring or difficult, read the personal stories at the end.

:hug:
Hi. I was at the AA meeting, it was disappointing, just like the previous one. They admitted losing control, but don't provide a solution.

The rehab staff didn't care about me. It's not easy to get in. I'm about to find a way to enter a rehabilitation program.
Hey oncereturner, what a shame that the AA meeting you went to was disappointing. Can you go to a different meeting? Do you have a lot of choice in the area where you live? I'm very lucky in that there are around 30 meetings a week where I live. If you don't have a lot of options, you could try attending an online meeting. There are online meetings both for AA and for Refuge Recovery, I think.

Normally, in AA-land, the steps are the solution. You don't regain control over the amount of alchohol you consume, but you solve the problem by giving up the fight, ie. abstinence, and a "spiritual solution", ie. the steps - basically a combination of moral inventory, making amends, meditation and/or prayer, journaling, and service/helping others. But it's not a quick fix, it does take some time to work the steps, and it does take a daily (or almost daily) commitment. For me, this consists in meditation, some prayer/intention-setting/metta, journaling (aka 10th step), and ideally a meeting or some form of contact with another alcoholic/sponsor/sponsee. But I'm much happier, much more equanimous, kinder toward myself and others, and sober. (As opposed to a mixture of irritable, discontent, resentful, and drunk or hungover.)

:heart:
AA meetings really let me down. The easiest way is simply not to drink. I tried and failed a hundred times. I try again, but I'm afraid it's too late.
Entering a rehabilitation center is not easy. I must find a way to get in.
"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

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