Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

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retrofuturist
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:04 am

Greetings Phena,

To civic nationalism, you mean?

Basically because I see the downsides of globalism, and because I believe in regarding people as individuals, rather than collectively under identity classifications.

Justification for both of these preferences is to be found in the Pali teachings.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by cjmacie » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:12 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
once I discovered the Dhamma, my political perspective became subordinate to my understanding of the Dhamma. ...
2. Insight about the dangers of partiality (described in translations of the suttas as "one-sidedness")
retrofuturist wrote:I guess now that we live in an age where leftists deem anyone to the right of Michael Moore to be either a "white supremacist" or a "Nazi", merely being smeared as "extreme" feels rather moderate and tame by way of comparison.
retrofuturist wrote:... I see the downsides of globalism, and because I believe in regarding people as individuals, rather than collectively under identity classifications.
Justification for both of these preferences is to be found in the Pali teachings.
Claiming your partisan political views -- at any stage of your evolution -- as inherent in or justified by the Buddha's teachings? Seriously?

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Phena,

To civic nationalism, you mean?

Basically because I see the downsides of globalism, and because I believe in regarding people as individuals, rather than collectively under identity classifications.

Justification for both of these preferences is to be found in the Pali teachings.

Metta,
Paul. :)
The fact that you don't immediately see a red flag with the extreme views of the characters I quoted is a concern.

As I've pointed out before Nationalism is one of the grossest forms of identification there is. I know you don't see this, which is even cause for greater concern.

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:35 am

Greetings Phena,
Phena wrote:The fact that you don't immediately see a red flag with the extreme views of the characters I quoted is a concern.
I find your fixation on collectivist classifications (e.g. race, gender, sexuality) to be a concern. That's why there's different positions... so we can select one that most closely aligns with what we believe and what concerns us. What all positions should hold, is a respect for the autonomy of others to decide for themselves what is correct or apt.
Phena wrote:As I've pointed out before Nationalism is one of the grossest forms of identification there is. I know you don't see this, which is even cause for greater concern.
I was never a fan of nationalism in the past, until I saw what grew in its place. Without a binding commonality between people who live in the same region, they begin to form tribes and creative divisions along the lines of the race, gender, sexuality etc. This is the foundation of identity politics, and it is fostered and sustained by identitarians on the left (e.g. progressives, SJWs) and on the right (e.g. Alt-Right, actual white nationalists)

It would be best if there was no identification at all, but if there must be one (and, yes, there must, given that most people are and will be puthujjanas), it's best if it's one that binds the people who live together in the same geographical proximity, rather than one that profiles them based upon identity attributes and regards them differently as natural enemies by virtue of their membership in such conceptual collectives. After all, that kind of identity-based prejudice seems rather discriminatory to me...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:39 am

Greetings CJMacie,
cjmacie wrote:Claiming your partisan political views -- at any stage of your evolution -- as inherent in or justified by the Buddha's teachings? Seriously?
Yes, seriously. I'm telling you my truth. If you can't accept it, I'm not really bothered by your lack of acceptance.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:I was never a fan of nationalism in the past, until I saw what grew in its place. Without a binding commonality between people who live in the same region, they begin to form tribes and creative divisions along the lines of the race, gender, sexuality etc.
Nationalism is one of the most dangerous forces there is. Just look at the first two world wars. You obviously haven't heeded the lessons of history.

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:45 am

Greetings Phena,

To boil it down to nationalism is a crude oversimplification, but one that infuses the psyche of those who try to artificially dilute national boundaries in Europe. From what I can see, I can't say that's a particularly good model. Even as a university student I could see that it was on a rocky course due to the fiscal constraints associated with the Euro. it's understandable that people are seeking alternatives to that mode of governance...

As for nationalism, it needn't be nationalism in the sense in which it is traditionally understood... merely nationism would suffice.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:09 am

retrofuturist wrote:To boil it down to nationalism is a crude oversimplification, but one that infuses the psyche of those who try to artificially dilute national boundaries in Europe. From what I can see, I can't say that's a particularly good model. Even as a university student I could see that it was on a rocky course due to the fiscal constraints associated with the Euro. it's understandable that people are seeking alternatives to that mode of governance...
It's far from perfect, but the pre-WWII situation was far worse. Just look at the first two world wars. You obviously haven't heeded the lessons of history.
retrofuturist wrote:As for nationalism, it needn't be nationalism in the sense in which it is traditionally understood... merely nationism would suffice.
I see you are shifting ground now to "Nationism". Well, I seem to remember you enthusiastically posting the Farage position on Nationalism some time ago before the UK election. You were very taken with his 'take' on Nationalism. Are you still on a unity ticket with him, because the UK public certainly weren't. The UKIP party was decimated in the election. Did they even win one seat? I think it was a complete wipe out from memory. Not really an endorsement of his form of extreme and divisive brexit-style politics.

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:16 am

Greetings Phena,
Phena wrote:It's far from perfect, but the pre-WWII situation was far worse. Just look at the first two world wars. You obviously haven't heeded the lessons of history.
So say you, but sometimes the solution is worse than the problem...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUR7Ir3RH9E
Phena wrote:I see you are shifting ground now to "Nationism". Well, I seem to remember you enthusiastically posting the Farage position on Nationalism some time ago before the UK election. You were very taken with his 'take' on Nationalism. Are you still on a unity ticket with him, because the UK public certainly weren't. The UKIP party was decimated in the election. Did they even win one seat? I think it was a complete wipe out from memory. Not really an endorsement of his form of extreme and divisive brexit-style politics.
UKIP was decimated largely because Nigel was no longer a factor locally and because Brexit had already been voted for 52-48. Its raison d'être had already been accomplished. However, if you pick your political positions based on popularity contests, then the most recent UK election may have some ramifications for you, I don't know. As for me, I have explained how mine came to be, in my initial foray into this topic.

Let's cut to the chase. I'm mentally capable of respecting your autonomy and allowing you to have your views without hectoring you about them - do you have the capacity and civility to do likewise? Or is "tolerance" a self-congratulatory virtue the left has abandoned? I do not understand what you expect of me, other than respond to your quarrels... otherwise, this discussion seems to have no logical end-point.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:50 am

retrofuturist wrote:Let's cut to the chase. I'm mentally capable of respecting your autonomy and allowing you to have your views without hectoring you about them - do you have the capacity and civility to do likewise? Or is "tolerance" a self-congratulatory virtue the left has abandoned? I do not understand what you expect of me, other than respond to your quarrels... otherwise, this discussion seems to have no logical end-point.
Indeed, let's cut to the chase. I know these are your opinions and political views, but by any measure they are extreme and the people you support and advocate are extreme. Now, I know you don't post them in your capacity as site Administration, but regardless, I think the extreme political positions you adopt still end up reflecting on this site and look to be a position this site has adopted. Also, given the conservative political bias of the owner and most of the (male) moderation team, I think this is not too far-fetched of a conclusion to come to, and looks like an endorsement of one political position over another. In fact, I actually think this is the case, and is not coincidence.

Furthermore, the post of yours that I responded to seems to intimate that as you progress in the Dhamma one naturally tends to a conservative political view/position. A patently absurd opinion. That's why we are having this discussion.

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:54 am

Greetings,

When you look at the world through leftist identitarian lenses, that is what you are bound to see. I am not in the slightest bit surprised... the Satipatthana Sutta says as much.

All the best to you.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:59 am

retrofuturist wrote:
I guess now that we live in an age where leftists deem anyone to the right of Michael Moore to be either a "white supremacist" or a "Nazi",
That is not true.

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:02 am

Surely this topic is in the wrong forum and needs to be moved?

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:05 am

Greetings Mr.Man,

If it were to be moved anywhere it would be to Personal Experience, or possibly Connections To Other Paths.

I would be OK with either if the OP wanted the topic moved to either of those sections. Alternatively, I see no problem where it is... its location does not curtail discussion.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

“Truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” (Flannery O'Connor)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:08 am

retrofuturist wrote:When you look at the world through leftist identitarian lenses, that is what you are bound to see.
The rhetoric of the alt-right. Absolutely nothing to do with the Dhamma and Satipatthana.

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