Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
Phena
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:40 am

retrofuturist wrote:I was never a fan of nationalism in the past, until I saw what grew in its place. Without a binding commonality between people who live in the same region, they begin to form tribes and creative divisions along the lines of the race, gender, sexuality etc.
Nationalism is one of the most dangerous forces there is. Just look at the first two world wars. You obviously haven't heeded the lessons of history.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 9:45 am

Greetings Phena,

To boil it down to nationalism is a crude oversimplification, but one that infuses the psyche of those who try to artificially dilute national boundaries in Europe. From what I can see, I can't say that's a particularly good model. Even as a university student I could see that it was on a rocky course due to the fiscal constraints associated with the Euro. it's understandable that people are seeking alternatives to that mode of governance...

As for nationalism, it needn't be nationalism in the sense in which it is traditionally understood... merely nationism would suffice.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:09 am

retrofuturist wrote:To boil it down to nationalism is a crude oversimplification, but one that infuses the psyche of those who try to artificially dilute national boundaries in Europe. From what I can see, I can't say that's a particularly good model. Even as a university student I could see that it was on a rocky course due to the fiscal constraints associated with the Euro. it's understandable that people are seeking alternatives to that mode of governance...
It's far from perfect, but the pre-WWII situation was far worse. Just look at the first two world wars. You obviously haven't heeded the lessons of history.
retrofuturist wrote:As for nationalism, it needn't be nationalism in the sense in which it is traditionally understood... merely nationism would suffice.
I see you are shifting ground now to "Nationism". Well, I seem to remember you enthusiastically posting the Farage position on Nationalism some time ago before the UK election. You were very taken with his 'take' on Nationalism. Are you still on a unity ticket with him, because the UK public certainly weren't. The UKIP party was decimated in the election. Did they even win one seat? I think it was a complete wipe out from memory. Not really an endorsement of his form of extreme and divisive brexit-style politics.

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:16 am

Greetings Phena,
Phena wrote:It's far from perfect, but the pre-WWII situation was far worse. Just look at the first two world wars. You obviously haven't heeded the lessons of history.
So say you, but sometimes the solution is worse than the problem...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RUR7Ir3RH9E
Phena wrote:I see you are shifting ground now to "Nationism". Well, I seem to remember you enthusiastically posting the Farage position on Nationalism some time ago before the UK election. You were very taken with his 'take' on Nationalism. Are you still on a unity ticket with him, because the UK public certainly weren't. The UKIP party was decimated in the election. Did they even win one seat? I think it was a complete wipe out from memory. Not really an endorsement of his form of extreme and divisive brexit-style politics.
UKIP was decimated largely because Nigel was no longer a factor locally and because Brexit had already been voted for 52-48. Its raison d'être had already been accomplished. However, if you pick your political positions based on popularity contests, then the most recent UK election may have some ramifications for you, I don't know. As for me, I have explained how mine came to be, in my initial foray into this topic.

Let's cut to the chase. I'm mentally capable of respecting your autonomy and allowing you to have your views without hectoring you about them - do you have the capacity and civility to do likewise? Or is "tolerance" a self-congratulatory virtue the left has abandoned? I do not understand what you expect of me, other than respond to your quarrels... otherwise, this discussion seems to have no logical end-point.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Phena
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:50 am

retrofuturist wrote:Let's cut to the chase. I'm mentally capable of respecting your autonomy and allowing you to have your views without hectoring you about them - do you have the capacity and civility to do likewise? Or is "tolerance" a self-congratulatory virtue the left has abandoned? I do not understand what you expect of me, other than respond to your quarrels... otherwise, this discussion seems to have no logical end-point.
Indeed, let's cut to the chase. I know these are your opinions and political views, but by any measure they are extreme and the people you support and advocate are extreme. Now, I know you don't post them in your capacity as site Administration, but regardless, I think the extreme political positions you adopt still end up reflecting on this site and look to be a position this site has adopted. Also, given the conservative political bias of the owner and most of the (male) moderation team, I think this is not too far-fetched of a conclusion to come to, and looks like an endorsement of one political position over another. In fact, I actually think this is the case, and is not coincidence.

Furthermore, the post of yours that I responded to seems to intimate that as you progress in the Dhamma one naturally tends to a conservative political view/position. A patently absurd opinion. That's why we are having this discussion.

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:54 am

Greetings,

When you look at the world through leftist identitarian lenses, that is what you are bound to see. I am not in the slightest bit surprised... the Satipatthana Sutta says as much.

All the best to you.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Mr Man
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 16, 2017 10:59 am

retrofuturist wrote:
I guess now that we live in an age where leftists deem anyone to the right of Michael Moore to be either a "white supremacist" or a "Nazi",
That is not true.

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:02 am

Surely this topic is in the wrong forum and needs to be moved?

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:05 am

Greetings Mr.Man,

If it were to be moved anywhere it would be to Personal Experience, or possibly Connections To Other Paths.

I would be OK with either if the OP wanted the topic moved to either of those sections. Alternatively, I see no problem where it is... its location does not curtail discussion.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:08 am

retrofuturist wrote:When you look at the world through leftist identitarian lenses, that is what you are bound to see.
The rhetoric of the alt-right. Absolutely nothing to do with the Dhamma and Satipatthana.

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:16 am

Greetings Phena,

Are you falsely accusing me of being Alt-Right.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

Phena
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Phena,

Are you falsely accusing me of being Alt-Right.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Well you are using the rhetoric of the alt-right, but I have no idea what label you attach to your extreme right position.

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Mr Man
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:24 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mr.Man,

If it were to be moved anywhere it would be to Personal Experience, or possibly Connections To Other Paths.

I would be OK with either if the OP wanted the topic moved to either of those sections. Alternatively, I see no problem where it is... its location does not curtail discussion.

Metta,
Paul. :)
You don't see a connection with politics?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:25 am

Phena wrote: Well you are using the rhetoric of the alt-right, but I have no idea what label you attach to your extreme right position.
Who is to say what is an "extreme right" position? If someone doesn't think that Retro is extreme, how are we to decide who is right?

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Mr Man
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:26 am

Paul why do you spread falsehoods?

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Mr Man
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:27 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Phena wrote: Well you are using the rhetoric of the alt-right, but I have no idea what label you attach to your extreme right position.
Who is to say what is an "extreme right" position? If someone doesn't think that Retro is extreme, how are we to decide who is right?
From what is evident? What is your political stance Sam?

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:27 am

Greetings,
Mr Man wrote:Paul why do you spread falsehoods?
I don't. Why do you perceive them as such?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Mr Man
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Mr Man wrote:Paul why do you spread falsehoods?
I don't. Why do you perceive them as such?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Because this is not true

I guess now that we live in an age where leftists deem anyone to the right of Michael Moore to be either a "white supremacist" or a "Nazi",

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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:30 am

Mr Man wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:
Phena wrote: Well you are using the rhetoric of the alt-right, but I have no idea what label you attach to your extreme right position.
Who is to say what is an "extreme right" position? If someone doesn't think that Retro is extreme, how are we to decide who is right?
From what is evident? What is your political stance Sam?
What is "evident" is presumably "evident" to both parties; those who think that Retro is extreme right, and those who don't. So that won't help us decide who is right.

Similarly, my political stance is irrelevant to the question I asked. You might as well ask me about my favourite sandwich-filling.

Phena
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 11:45 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Phena wrote: Well you are using the rhetoric of the alt-right, but I have no idea what label you attach to your extreme right position.
Who is to say what is an "extreme right" position? If someone doesn't think that Retro is extreme, how are we to decide who is right?
Well, ultimately what is "extreme" what is "right"? Just language and conventions of the conceptual realm that consciousness is established on.

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