Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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Mr Man
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:02 pm

Here is another example of a falsehood
When you look at the world through leftist identitarian lenses, that is what you are bound to see. I am not in the slightest bit surprised... the Satipatthana Sutta says as much

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Sam Vara
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:11 pm

Phena wrote:
Sam Vara wrote:
Phena wrote: Well you are using the rhetoric of the alt-right, but I have no idea what label you attach to your extreme right position.
Who is to say what is an "extreme right" position? If someone doesn't think that Retro is extreme, how are we to decide who is right?
Well, ultimately what is "extreme" what is "right"? Just language and conventions of the conceptual realm that consciousness is established on.
If the meaning of a term is merely conventional, then how are we to know whether we are using it correctly? Where are the conventions to be found, such that we know whether our use is normal or idiosyncratic?

My point is that consciousness is established on more than a merely conceptual realm which we happen to find. It is established on a sense of "I" and "mine". What is "extreme" is something which is perceived to be a long way from "me". What is "right wing" is something to the right of "me". I know people - communities of people, with their own conventions of language - who would consider Retro to be extremely right wing, and others who would consider him to be extremely left wing. Who has read the conventions of language correctly, and how do we know that they have?

What is "the rhetoric of the alt-right"?

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:24 pm

Greetings Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:Here is another example of a falsehood
When you look at the world through leftist identitarian lenses, that is what you are bound to see. I am not in the slightest bit surprised... the Satipatthana Sutta says as much
Not false. How we volitionally frame reality determines 'existence' and what is true to each of us in terms of our subjective experience. When one frames experience through the lens of patriarchy, identity politics, critical race theory and other such frames of reference adopted by those on the left, then experience and understandings will be shaped accordingly.

Thus, my total lack of surprise that Phena framed things as described.

See? No lies. Just a different 'loka', and an awareness that it is so. How could it be otherwise?

That said, your insinuation that I was lying was rather distasteful. The civilized and decent thing to do would be to apologize.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Mr Man » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:37 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:Here is another example of a falsehood
When you look at the world through leftist identitarian lenses, that is what you are bound to see. I am not in the slightest bit surprised... the Satipatthana Sutta says as much
Not false.
The falsehood is making a connection between "Satipatthana Sutta" and "leftist identitarian lenses".

This also was a falsehood -
I guess now that we live in an age where leftists deem anyone to the right of Michael Moore to be either a "white supremacist" or a "Nazi"

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 12:43 pm

Greetings Mr Man,
Mr Man wrote:The falsehood is making a connection between "Satipatthana Sutta" and "leftist identitarian lenses".
The whole sutta pertains to frames of reference. If you can't fathom that, then how can I help you comprehend it?

:shrug:

So, I guess, in the end not only do you violate the Terms of Service by making unsubstantiated accusations against individuals, but instead of apologizing for your misdemeanours, you double down on your aspersions.

Quite sad, really.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:03 pm

Sam Vara wrote:f the meaning of a term is merely conventional, then how are we to know whether we are using it correctly?
But that is exactly what the word "convention" pertains to, a shared, common understanding, in the realm of the conceptual and ideas. I think you are trying to point out the arbitrary nature of differing perceptions. I have given my reasons above for my perceptions, and where I place Retro arbitrarily on the political spectrum (in the sense of Western politics - to be more precise and descriptive).
Sam Vara wrote:My point is that consciousness is established on more than a merely conceptual realm which we happen to find. It is established on a sense of "I" and "mine"
Consciousness cannot be established on the conceptual realm (nama-rupa) without "I" and "mine" arising.
Sam Vara wrote:What is "extreme" is something which is perceived to be a long way from "me". What is "right wing" is something to the right of "me".
Yes, of course.
Sam Vara wrote: I know people - communities of people, with their own conventions of language - who would consider Retro to be extremely right wing, and others who would consider him to be extremely left wing.
Retro being left wing, from the perspective of the conventional and arbitrary perceptions, is just a ridiculous assertion, so I disagree.

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Phena » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:23 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Not false. How we volitionally frame reality determines 'existence' and what is true to each of us in terms of our subjective experience. When one frames experience through the lens of patriarchy, identity politics, critical race theory and other such frames of reference adopted by those on the left, then experience and understandings will be shaped accordingly.
But when you frame experience through the lens of the Right, as you do Retro, then the true Dhamma arises.

Seriously, do you realise the ridiculousness and hypocrisy of your conclusions?

Perhaps framing the "world" through the lens of the Right makes you blind to your own inconsistencies.

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Sam Vara » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:25 pm

Phena wrote: Retro being left wing, from the perspective of the conventional and arbitrary perceptions, is just a ridiculous assertion, so I disagree.
I'm trying to see how perceptions can be both conventional and arbitrary, but perhaps that's best left alone.

If we focus on the "conventional" aspect, how do we find out what the conventional usage is of the term "alt right"? Lots of people on this site tend to gravitate to Wikipedia to determine conventional meanings of terms, but Wikipedia gives the following for "alt right":
The alt-right, or alternative right, is a loosely defined group of people with far-right ideologies who reject mainstream conservatism in favor of white nationalism. White supremacist[1] Richard Spencer initially promoted the term in 2010 in reference to a movement centered on white nationalism, and did so according to the Associated Press to disguise overt racism, white supremacism, and neo-Nazism.[2][3][4] The term drew considerable media attention and controversy during and after the 2016 US presidential election.[5]

Alt-right beliefs have been described as isolationist, protectionist, antisemitic, and white supremacist,[6][7][8] frequently overlapping with Neo-Nazism,[9][10][11][12] nativism and Islamophobia,[13][14][15][16][17] antifeminism, misogyny, and homophobia,[9][18][19][20][12] right-wing populism,[21][22] and the neoreactionary movement.[6][23] The concept has further been associated with several groups from American nationalists, neo-monarchists, men's rights advocates, and the 2016 presidential campaign of Donald Trump
Is Retro using the rhetoric of these beliefs? Or is this one of those cases where Wikipedia can't help us, and you can steer us to a clearer understanding of the conventional meaning of "alt right"?

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 1:52 pm

Greetings Phena,
Phena wrote:But when you frame experience through the lens of the Right, as you do Retro, then the true Dhamma arises.

Seriously, do you realise the ridiculousness and hypocrisy of your conclusions?
When you dare to declare my conclusion on my behalf, it is rather ridiculous, yes. Maybe you might be gracious enough to desist from such ridiculousness? You really do disgrace yourself with such juvenile antics.

Rather, should you let me speak, rather than uncharitably insist the worst, then I would say that the right might apply lenses or frameworks which pertain to law and order, rights, the free market, and principles like liberty, and blind justice.
Phena wrote:Perhaps framing the "world" through the lens of the Right makes you blind to your own inconsistencies.
Rather, being aware of the framing of the world, I allow others to explain their truth as they see it... rather than undertake the imbecilic act of inferring that they are liars, simply because their experiences and understandings differ from mine.

So much for the "tolerant left" I once heard about.

:lol:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by cjmacie » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:34 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings CJMacie,
cjmacie wrote:Claiming your partisan political views -- at any stage of your evolution -- as inherent in or justified by the Buddha's teachings? Seriously?
Yes, seriously. I'm telling you my truth. If you can't accept it, I'm not really bothered by your lack of acceptance.
It brings to mind issues of dealing in views, compounded by the exercise of authority (as both moderator and site admin) – i.e. the forum as a pulpit. There have been times, admittedly rare, where this has had the appearance of being used a bit overbearingly.

btw: I find myself agreeing with your analysis of the validity of allowing populations the right to maintain and enforce their identities (in the sense of boundaries, social norms, cultural values, etc.) – along the lines of the kind of identity or shared values based on family, extended family (village), etc. up to state or nation size – not unlike the Confucian model of social organization, which, whatever one thinks of it otherwise, is perhaps the most historically durable (large-scale) one on the planet. The globalization notion of anyone having the right to go live (and bring along their cultural norms) where ever they desire is becoming seriously disruptive as seen today where “free immigration” is tolerated. Counter examples, whether one otherwise respects them or not, include Russia, China, Japan, Israel, etc. possibly even England (as distinct from the UK).

Loudly in our faces at the moment is the situation in Myanmar. This might raise eyebrows (if not trigger outrage), but I find some sense to the logic voiced there: The society is overwhelmingly Buddhist; the Buddha warned about small things that grow to become venomous (quoted by some of the monastic leaders involved in the matter); there’s a 1500-year history of Islamic groups obliterating large scale Buddhist populations and institutions (notably Buddhism in the Buddha’s own homeland); and numerous details like recently the demolition of those 80-foot high Buddha stone carvings by the Taliban,...

Note: Agreeing with “ your analysis” here at the start is not suggest your views would agree with the points I continued with...

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by clw_uk » Sat Sep 16, 2017 2:51 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Phena,
Phena wrote:The fact that you don't immediately see a red flag with the extreme views of the characters I quoted is a concern.
I find your fixation on collectivist classifications (e.g. race, gender, sexuality) to be a concern. That's why there's different positions... so we can select one that most closely aligns with what we believe and what concerns us. What all positions should hold, is a respect for the autonomy of others to decide for themselves what is correct or apt.
Phena wrote:As I've pointed out before Nationalism is one of the grossest forms of identification there is. I know you don't see this, which is even cause for greater concern.
I was never a fan of nationalism in the past, until I saw what grew in its place. Without a binding commonality between people who live in the same region, they begin to form tribes and creative divisions along the lines of the race, gender, sexuality etc. This is the foundation of identity politics, and it is fostered and sustained by identitarians on the left (e.g. progressives, SJWs) and on the right (e.g. Alt-Right, actual white nationalists)

It would be best if there was no identification at all, but if there must be one (and, yes, there must, given that most people are and will be puthujjanas), it's best if it's one that binds the people who live together in the same geographical proximity, rather than one that profiles them based upon identity attributes and regards them differently as natural enemies by virtue of their membership in such conceptual collectives. After all, that kind of identity-based prejudice seems rather discriminatory to me...

Metta,
Paul. :)

I completely agree. As you know, I used to be a socialist/communist and had no time for Nationalism. Now I've done a complete 180 on almost everything, becoming; centrist, capitalist, Nationalist
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by clw_uk » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:01 pm

Phena wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:I was never a fan of nationalism in the past, until I saw what grew in its place. Without a binding commonality between people who live in the same region, they begin to form tribes and creative divisions along the lines of the race, gender, sexuality etc.
Nationalism is one of the most dangerous forces there is. Just look at the first two world wars. You obviously haven't heeded the lessons of history.

I'd say socialism/communism is
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by clw_uk » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:04 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Phena,

To boil it down to nationalism is a crude oversimplification, but one that infuses the psyche of those who try to artificially dilute national boundaries in Europe. From what I can see, I can't say that's a particularly good model. Even as a university student I could see that it was on a rocky course due to the fiscal constraints associated with the Euro. it's understandable that people are seeking alternatives to that mode of governance...

As for nationalism, it needn't be nationalism in the sense in which it is traditionally understood... merely nationism would suffice.

Metta,
Paul. :)

The Nationalims of WW1 were expansionist. The Nationalism of today, such as that which was displayed during the UK EU referendum, is isolationist and conservative.

For some reason certain people can't seem to differentiate the two.
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by clw_uk » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:05 pm

Phena wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:To boil it down to nationalism is a crude oversimplification, but one that infuses the psyche of those who try to artificially dilute national boundaries in Europe. From what I can see, I can't say that's a particularly good model. Even as a university student I could see that it was on a rocky course due to the fiscal constraints associated with the Euro. it's understandable that people are seeking alternatives to that mode of governance...
It's far from perfect, but the pre-WWII situation was far worse. Just look at the first two world wars. You obviously haven't heeded the lessons of history.
retrofuturist wrote:As for nationalism, it needn't be nationalism in the sense in which it is traditionally understood... merely nationism would suffice.
I see you are shifting ground now to "Nationism". Well, I seem to remember you enthusiastically posting the Farage position on Nationalism some time ago before the UK election. You were very taken with his 'take' on Nationalism. Are you still on a unity ticket with him, because the UK public certainly weren't. The UKIP party was decimated in the election. Did they even win one seat? I think it was a complete wipe out from memory. Not really an endorsement of his form of extreme and divisive brexit-style politics.

Well, I voted UKIP in the last election :jumping:
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Garrib » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:06 pm

To have a political opinion is one thing - to try to justify that belief based on the Dhamma is quite another. Especially in today's divided political world, where there is blame on "every side" and plenty of misconceptions and exaggerations going around. While I definitely do respect the site admin and all of their work to keep this forum up and running, I also do find it distasteful and disturbing that (somewhat extreme, narrow minded, and arguably mean-spirited) right wing ideas seem to be tolerated or even supported, while ideas coming from the left are utterly dismissed without ever honestly dealing with the substance or nuance of the issues around them.

Metta,

Brad

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:10 pm

Greetings Garrib,

Should you be amenable to it, I'd suggest it's far more charitable to assume that people hold what views they hold out of a genuine belief that such models lead to better outcomes, rather than merely being rooted in mean-spiritedness.

Such charity of intention seems in short supply nowadays. The intolerance of divergent viewpoints is rather unfortunate, but unsurprising given the way that technology is used to facilitate ideological echo chambers.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by clw_uk » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:12 pm

Garrib wrote:To have a political opinion is one thing - to try to justify that belief based on the Dhamma is quite another. Especially in today's divided political world, where there is blame on "every side" and plenty of misconceptions and exaggerations going around. While I definitely do respect the site admin and all of their work to keep this forum up and running, I also do find it distasteful and disturbing that (somewhat extreme, narrow minded, and arguably mean-spirited) right wing ideas seem to be tolerated or even supported, while ideas coming from the left are utterly dismissed without ever honestly dealing with the substance or nuance of the issues around them.

Metta,

Brad

For many years the reverse was true on this site, but worse. Right wing members were usually banned or posts deleted whilst left wing ones were left alone. I'm happy the page has now shifted to a more libertarian one, where ALL views can be heard and discussed. If you think that's right wing, so be it.
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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by Garrib » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:23 pm

If that is true then perhaps the greater issue is that we are now living in a world where extreme right wing ideas are deemed more acceptable - this site could just be mirroring the larger trend. Such is samsara - Sometimes, contemplating impermanence can be VERY comforting! :anjali:

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:28 pm

Greetings CJ,
cjmacie wrote:It brings to mind issues of dealing in views, compounded by the exercise of authority (as both moderator and site admin) – i.e. the forum as a pulpit. There have been times, admittedly rare, where this has had the appearance of being used a bit overbearingly.
You speak here of both "appearance" and "the exercise of authority". The former is entirely in the eye of the beholder (i.e. subjective), and the latter is an action (i.e. objective). If you can avoid conflating these two, I for one would personally appreciate it.

Just because someone who is speaking happens to have been granted authority, does not mean that they are actively exercising it when they speak in their capacity as a member. In fact, from what I've seen from the current staff, they are (if anything) less likely to exercise authority in a topic in which they're an active participant, so as to mitigate any potential false perceptions about the misuse of that authority. Sometimes, they themselves will use the "report post" function, in order to bring a post to the attention of another staff member to assess. I personally tolerate a degree of off-topic nonsense from a small handful of serial complainants that I may not tolerate if their incessant and disruptive quibbling was directed at someone else.
cjmacie wrote:Note: Agreeing with “ your analysis” here at the start is not suggest your views would agree with the points I continued with...
Not a problem at all. It's refreshing to hear someone speak the truth as it appears to them, rather than incessantly whingeing about others doing likewise.

It's 1.24 a.m. at the moment here and I'm on my mobile phone, so hopefully you'll excuse me if I don't source suttas at such an hour, but there are indeed suttas that speak to the merit of defending one's populace from law breakers, invaders, bandits and so forth. Time permitting I might search for some tomorrow if you or anyone else might be interested.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

Post by clw_uk » Sat Sep 16, 2017 3:39 pm

Garrib wrote:If that is true then perhaps the greater issue is that we are now living in a world where extreme right wing ideas are deemed more acceptable - this site could just be mirroring the larger trend. Such is samsara - Sometimes, contemplating impermanence can be VERY comforting! :anjali:

Extreme right wing and left wing views are, especially in the west.
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