Buddhism, Socialism/Communism and Capitalism

[Ceisiwr]

As Buddhists we obviously strive to better ourselves whilst also treating other sentient beings with loving kindness and compassion. To me, as lay Buddhists that also means we should choose our political ideologies carefully so as to not cause harm to ourselves and sentient beings. With that in mind I would argue that no Buddhist should support socialism/communism or any economic/political ideology which seeks to act against economic reality and interfere with the efficient allocation of resources according to the profit motive, private property and supply and demand. To do so would lead to political and economic ruin, thus harming ourselves and others. Buddhists should therefore support capitalism in some form, be it centre left social-democracy or centre-right classical liberalism/minarchism. In other words socialism/communism should be rejected along with Fascism and Nazism.

Thoughts?

[SarathW]

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you.
Today there is no perfect capitalism. Capitalist or monarchist changed their ideology to react to socialism by introducing socialist ideas to the capitalism.
I have noticed after the end of cold war, capitalist taken away most of the benefit enjoyed by their citizens as the threat of socialism started to diminished.
Socialism and capitalism both work if we have a well-informed society.
Even the dictatorship will work if there is a good dictator.
When we come to the protection of their citizens the capitalist countries like the US come to the bottom of the ladder while countries like Japan come to the top.
Dukkha can not be ended by any ism.

[Sam Vara]

Dukkha can not be ended by any ism.

Except Buddhism, SarathW!

[DooDoot]

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you. As Buddhists we obviously strive to practise the 3 trainings of the noble eightfold path (which includes morality & generosity) rather than expect others to treat us unconditionality with loving kindness and compassion while at the same time we trash other people we disagree with us. Buddhism does not give us any special privileges or rights to not show loving-kindness to others; including to communists, socialists, Nazis, Muslims, etc. Buddhism gives loving-kindness to all (100% of) beings. Buddhism does not concern itself with allocation of resources according to the profit motive, private property and supply and demand. Buddhism teaches anatta/not-self therefore teaches ideas of private property or "my property" is a delusion. Capitalism has often lead to the political and economic ruin of many, such as during the Great Depression & the GFC. It was only socialism that saved the world from the destructiveness of capitalism during the Great Depression. In fact, it was socialism that bailed out the Capitalist banks during the GFC. Taxpayers save the banks, who got richer, even though the common taxpayer got poorer. Many traditional Buddhist cultures were based in socialism or communalism, such as in traditional Thailand. Buddhism has loving-kindess & compassion for all beings (100% of beings). Therefore, with empathy, if there is a growing interest or resurgence of 'Nazism', Buddhist should investigate the grievances of these people and resolve them in realistic ways. Capitalism is based in greed & maximizing corporate profits. Buddhism does not support greed. Communism failed because it was really a looting operation run by thugs that disguised itself as wanting the best for people. But if all beings were enlightened, the economic of the world would be Community-ist or Sangha-ist.

[Ceisiwr]

DooDoot -

Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you. As Buddhists we obviously strive to practise the 3 trainings of the noble eightfold path (which includes morality & generosity) rather than expect others to treat us unconditionality with loving kindness and compassion

I agree

while at the same time we trash other people we disagree with us. Buddhism does not give us any special privileges or rights to not show loving-kindness to others; including to communists, socialists, Nazis, Muslims, etc.

Once again, I agree. However, we should point out when others are straying into unwholesome activities. We can criticise, but ultimately its up to them (notice the libertarianism there )

Buddhism gives loving-kindness to all (100% of) beings.

Of course

Buddhism does not concern itself with allocation of resources according to the profit motive, private property and supply and demand. Buddhism teaches anatta/not-self therefore teaches ideas of private property or "my property" is a delusion.

As a higher teaching, yes. But, for layfolk who live in the world and who haven't renounced it, capitalism is best.

Capitalism has often lead to the political and economic ruin of many, such as during the Great Depression & the GFC. It was only socialism that saved the world from the destructiveness of capitalism during the Great Depression.

Actually it was state interference which lead to the Great Depression. Read up on Milton Friedman

In fact, it was socialism that bailed out the Capitalist banks during the GFC. Taxpayers save the banks, who got richer, even though the common taxpayer got poorer.

The problem there was the merger of corporate and state power, so that banks got too big to fail. Personally the banks should have been allowed to fail. The market would have taken over.

Many traditional Buddhist cultures were based in socialism or communalism, such as in traditional Thailand. Buddhism has loving-kindess & compassion for all beings (100% of beings).

And what poverty they lived in

Therefore, with empathy, if there is a growing interest or resurgence of 'Nazism', Buddhist should investigate the grievances of these people and resolve them in realistic ways. Capitalism is based in greed & maximizing corporate profits. Buddhism does not support greed.

What is wrong with making a profit? With profit you can reinvest in your business. That means you can hire more people and lift them out of poverty (capitalism has been the greatest engine of poverty reduction we have known), pay them more, innovate and produce more of the goods that society wants whilst at the same time earning a reward for you and your family. Everyone wins.

Communism failed because it was really a looting operation run by thugs that disguised itself as wanting the best for people. But if all beings were enlightened, the economic of the world would be Community-ist or Sangha-ist.

Empty idealism. There will never be a situation where everyone is an Arahant, much less a Buddhist. Even Buddha understood this.

[SarathW]

Dukkha can not be ended by any ism.

Except Buddhism, SarathW!

Then all the Buddhist have to be an Arahants.

[Sam Vara]

Dukkha can not be ended by any ism.

Except Buddhism, SarathW!

Then all the Buddhist have to be an Arahants.

True, but Buddhism is the only way to become an arahant.

[DooDoot]

Actually it was state interference which lead to the Great Depression. Read up on Milton Friedman...

Friedman blamed the Federal Reserve, which is not a govt entity but a private entity created by private bankers. The Depression was caused by Capitalists, who pumped up the economy by increasing the money supply then broke the economy by tightened the money supply. They all sold their shares at the peak of the stock market and then bought up the distressed assets when the Depression hit. It was 100% capitalism.

The problem there was the merger of corporate and state power, so that banks got too big to fail. Personally the banks should have been allowed to fail. The market would have taken over.

That the banks control the govt is capitalism. It is not government. Under capitalism, the capitalists can buy the govt and become the govt because their only goal is to accumulate more money, power & control. Capitalism does not regulate itself with a magic hand. This is a superstition.

And what poverty they lived in

Actually, Thailand is the Golden Land, a land of natural abundance, in which Buddhism also flourished, with the generosity of that abundance. On this note, I will end our discussions. I love Thailand because I am grateful to Thailand because I found personal salvation in Thailand.

And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no other world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no contemplatives or brahmans who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the other after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view

Maybe the end of dukkha can be found in the Church of England. God save the Queen/King.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFckP0F ... G3agA51Rd0

[DNS]

In fact, it was socialism that bailed out the Capitalist banks during the GFC. Taxpayers save the banks, who got richer, even though the common taxpayer got poorer.

If the banks got richer and the common taxpayer poorer, then I guess socialism failed yet again.

It could have been left to the market; if it means some banks failing, then maybe they'll learn that way not to do those things again.

[DooDoot]

It could have been left to the market; if it means some banks failing, then maybe they'll learn that way not to do those things again.

Thanks but I already posted my view that an inherent feature of capitalism is the capitalists buy & control the government. The capitalists become the government. Obama had the highest % of the Wall St gang in his administration of any president. It was known before his election Obama represented the financial interests. In other words, it is only government that has the power to allow "the market" to work freely. For example, it was govt in the USA that introduced anti-trust laws to give the public the impression they were breaking up cartels.

United States antitrust law is a collection of federal and state government laws that regulates the conduct and organization of business corporations, generally to promote fair competition for the benefit of consumers. (The concept is called competition law in other English-speaking countries.) The main statutes are the Sherman Act 1890, the Clayton Act 1914 and the Federal Trade Commission Act 1914. These Acts, first, restrict the formation of cartels and prohibit other collusive practices regarded as being in restraint of trade. Second, they restrict the mergers and acquisitions of organizations that could substantially lessen competition. Third, they prohibit the creation of a monopoly and the abuse of monopoly power.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_St ... itrust_law

[dharmacorps]

The same thing happened with communism-- the party leadership became the government, and the aristocracy.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings,

I originally had a political perspective, but once I discovered the Dhamma, my political perspective became subordinate to my understanding of the Dhamma. As my understanding grew, my political views shifted.

Dhammic insights which caused this shift were:

1. Insight into the suffering arising from covetousness

2. Insight about the dangers of partiality (described in translations of the suttas as "one-sidedness")

3. Insight about how the mind is the forerunner of all mental states, and the role the mind plays (vis-a-vis external factors) in the arising of dukkha

4. Insight that people are accountable for their own actions and reactions, not for the actions and reactions of others

5. Insight about Wrong View and a yearning for freedom from any authority imposed by those whose speech and actions derived from Wrong View

6. Insight about kamma and how the commensurate vipaka comes to be, without external oversight or adjudication

7. Insight about the fallacious nature of identity, and by extension, identity politics.

8. The Buddha's willingness to speak the truth, and call out (rather than tolerate or provide safe-spaces for) Wrong View.

Thinking in terms of the political compass:

- Numbers 1-4 have pushed me from market socialism, to center-left, and then to centre-right.

- Numbers 3-8 have pushed me even further away from authoritarianism, towards libertarianism. The realisation that much of what the modern left tries to achieve relies upon authoritarianism and/or partiality, has caused me to drift away from that.

Anyway, they're the insights that come to mind immediately, but if there are more factors that come to mind I will be happy to share them.

Metta,
Paul.

[Phena]

As my understanding grew, my political views shifted.

Yes, they became more extreme. I would go back and get a better understanding of the Dhamma instead of just accepting your evolution.

[retrofuturist]

Greetings Phena,

I guess now that we live in an age where leftists deem anyone to the right of Michael Moore to be either a "white supremacist" or a "Nazi", merely being smeared as "extreme" feels rather moderate and tame by way of comparison. Thanks.

Metta,
Paul.

[Phena]

Greetings Phena,

I guess now that we live in an age where leftists deem anyone to the right of Michael Moore to be either a "white supremacist" or a "Nazi", merely being smeared as "extreme" feels rather moderate and tame by way of comparison. Thanks.

Metta,
Paul.

Yes but in your case Retro you've been very vocal of your support of characters such as Trump, Farage, Bannon and Yianopolous. So yes, I would consider your politics extreme. I am not sure how Dhamma practice leads you to a place like this.