Killing Rats

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by DNS » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:02 am

Dryer sheets work as a repellent. If you can access a hole and stick them in there, they may just leave on their own. The smell is very strong though and can be annoying for humans too.

It really works. When we camped out in a tent at a retreat center, we were the only tent that didn't get visited by mice or rats.

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by No_Mind » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:32 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Dryer sheets work as a repellent. If you can access a hole and stick them in there, they may just leave on their own. The smell is very strong though and can be annoying for humans too.

It really works. When we camped out in a tent at a retreat center, we were the only tent that didn't get visited by mice or rats.
Dryer sheets may work because of fragrance. No dryer sheets available here nor peppermint oil. I have tried baby powder, powder, after shave, cinnamon, bay leaves, chilli powder (as santa100 suggested), phenyle, ammonia, bleaching powder, kerosene. They are not deterred. They are some type of strong and vindictive phenotype.

A few weeks back one had somehow jumped 4 ft up a vertical wall and dragged down a freshly laundered t-shirt from a shelf and tried to run off. Being afraid of leptospirosis, I had to throw the t-shirt away.

dharmacorps suggested steel wool .. would not work .. they are amazingly vindictive if not allowed to get in. I have a box room with no door. From outside my home the rat(s) dug a hole through brick and cement floor of my box room and thus secured passage to rest of my house (that is intelligent .. a tunnel to the only room with no doors). When I sealed the hole, in anger they ripped up part of the cemented passage outside my house (adjoining wall of the box room)!! Breaking cement is no problem for them. Then they push the underlying bricks aside and create havoc.

My house being old and dilapidated I believe they might have dug a tunnel under my home (in same way as they destroyed a 380 meter long bridge shown above).

It is wrong to kill .. but in last 24 hours my resolve has strengthened .. I will pray for them and do metta for them .. never be happy when they die .. but die they must. I had the most horrid Saturday morning ever cleaning a kilo of sticky cooking oil and accompanying stiffness on Sunday. One weekend comes after five days of back breaking work.

I am hoping that death of the first 10 will send a message .. since they seem to be really intelligent creatures.

I am guessing animals have some means of conveying death and danger .. high frequency cries or smell of death etc beyond our sensory spectrum .. would not work for poison because the rat does not die where it eats the poison .. but hopefully once the rats learn that touching food in this place may result in instant death they may acquire the wisdom to not mess with me.
Last edited by No_Mind on Sun Feb 05, 2017 5:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Mkoll » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:44 am

No_Mind wrote:No dryer sheets available here nor peppermint oil.
Can't you order them from Amazon?
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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by No_Mind » Sun Feb 05, 2017 4:51 am

Mkoll wrote:
No_Mind wrote:No dryer sheets available here nor peppermint oil.
Can't you order them from Amazon?
It is expensive .. Amazon India is selling 40 for $6.65 .. for an excursion/camping I can spare that amount .. but in an ongoing fight over 1000 sq ft of home .. the rats will turn me bankrupt.

Dryer sheets is after all fabric softener (which we use in liquid form) and its fragrance is supposed to deter the rats .. but not these .. if ammonia and bleach does not work .. nothing will.

The problem with rats and old houses is it is not clear what they want. I have given them food before in hopes of appeasing them but to no avail. With other pests and predators from mosquitoes to tigers one knows they want food. The best way to not be bitten by mosquito is to have a bath with strong soap (like Dettol soap) because mosquitoes are attracted to a chemical produced by sweaty legs. But with rats ..
Disciple wrote:I have an uncle who also had a rat infestation in his house. He bought a trap and each time he would catch them he'd slip them in a heavy plastic bag and proceed to bash them against a concrete wall until they stopped moving. I wouldn't recommend that method but he has never had a rat infestation since.
That is an interesting nugget of information. They do have means to communicate while dying and warning off others (much the same as humans).
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by binocular » Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:31 am

There are dogs that are specifically suited for catching rats:
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/Top-10-Dog- ... ching-Rats
http://www.ratrelief.com/ratting-dogs/
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 06, 2017 11:17 am

binocular wrote:There are dogs that are specifically suited for catching rats:
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/Top-10-Dog- ... ching-Rats
http://www.ratrelief.com/ratting-dogs/
What is the difference between a owning a rat killing dog and a rat trap which breaks its neck faster than a dog from ethical point of view?

(hypothetical question since I cannot keep a dog now .. too busy to take care of it .. also cannot afford it currently .. meat and dog food is very expensive here and so is dog treatment .. costs about $1200/year to keep a dog here .. by purchasing power parity that is $4000 in U.S.)
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:04 pm

No_Mind wrote:What is the difference between a owning a rat killing dog and a rat trap which breaks its neck faster than a dog from ethical point of view?
When one sets a lethal rat trap because one wishes to kill a rat, there is no possibility of the first precept not being broken should a rat be killed by it.

Keeping a dog or a cat, on the other hand, is something that one might do in the hope that its mere presence would deter the rats. Of course if one acquired the animal in the hope that it will kill rats, then I suppose it wouldn't be any different from setting a lethal trap. Likewise, if one saw a rat and ordered the dog to kill it, then it wouldn't be any different from hiring a contract killer.

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by chownah » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:08 pm

No_Mind wrote:
binocular wrote:There are dogs that are specifically suited for catching rats:
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/Top-10-Dog- ... ching-Rats
http://www.ratrelief.com/ratting-dogs/
What is the difference between a owning a rat killing dog and a rat trap which breaks its neck faster than a dog from ethical point of view?

(hypothetical question since I cannot keep a dog now .. too busy to take care of it .. also cannot afford it currently .. meat and dog food is very expensive here and so is dog treatment .. costs about $1200/year to keep a dog here .. by purchasing power parity that is $4000 in U.S.)
I guess the USofA is pretty exceptional then because you can keep a dog there for very little money.....even low income people can afford to keep a dog.
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by binocular » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:11 pm

No_Mind wrote:What is the difference between a owning a rat killing dog and a rat trap which breaks its neck faster than a dog from ethical point of view?
When one has such questions and concerns, one should perhaps better become a monk ...
I'm not saying this lightly. As far as I can tell, there is no entirely peaceful and harmless way to live in this world, other than the life of a monk that comes with the promise of making an end to all karma.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by binocular » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:15 pm

Dhammanando wrote:Keeping a dog or a cat
Keeping a carnivore animal already breaks the first precept by implication, even if the carnivore animal doesn't kill any other animals.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:18 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
No_Mind wrote:What is the difference between a owning a rat killing dog and a rat trap which breaks its neck faster than a dog from ethical point of view?
When one sets a lethal rat trap because one wishes to kill a rat, there is no possibility of the first precept not being broken should a rat be killed by it.

Keeping a dog or a cat, on the other hand, is something that one might do in the hope that its mere presence would deter the rats. Of course if one acquired the animal in the hope that it will kill rats, then I suppose it wouldn't be any different from setting a lethal trap. Likewise, if one saw a rat and ordered the dog to kill it, then it wouldn't be any different from hiring a contract killer.
Thank you Venerable. I was speaking of the case when one buys a terrier explicitly for killing rats.
chownah wrote:
No_Mind wrote:
binocular wrote:There are dogs that are specifically suited for catching rats:
https://pethelpful.com/dogs/Top-10-Dog- ... ching-Rats
http://www.ratrelief.com/ratting-dogs/
What is the difference between a owning a rat killing dog and a rat trap which breaks its neck faster than a dog from ethical point of view?

(hypothetical question since I cannot keep a dog now .. too busy to take care of it .. also cannot afford it currently .. meat and dog food is very expensive here and so is dog treatment .. costs about $1200/year to keep a dog here .. by purchasing power parity that is $4000 in U.S.)
I guess the USofA is pretty exceptional then because you can keep a dog there for very little money.....even low income people can afford to keep a dog.
chownah
Don't be daft and don't bait me. In last page I wrote everyone here (in my neighbourhood) has a dog but me. Right now I do not have money to spare to buy meat for a dog nor time to spare taking care of it. Is that a crime? So un-Buddhist. How can you call yourself a Buddhist I wonder.
binocular wrote:
No_Mind wrote:What is the difference between a owning a rat killing dog and a rat trap which breaks its neck faster than a dog from ethical point of view?
When one has such questions and concerns, one should perhaps better become a monk ...
I'm not saying this lightly. As far as I can tell, there is no entirely peaceful and harmless way to live in this world, other than the life of a monk that comes with the promise of making an end to all karma.
On the whole that is what I feel too. Just that the thought of killing them with a trap has horrified me for 25 years and now I have taken this step. Hence the OP. Not that I wish others to hold my hand and tell me it is okay to kill a rat or two .. just that I feel really bad.
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Dhammanando » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:06 pm

binocular wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:Keeping a dog or a cat
Keeping a carnivore animal already breaks the first precept by implication, even if the carnivore animal doesn't kill any other animals.
The only sort of pet-keeping that would perforce entail breaking the first precept is where the animal is of a kind that needs to be fed live prey, such as a pogona or a boa constrictor.

As for breaking the first precept "by implication", there isn't any such thing. Either the transgressional factors of object, perception, intention, effort and outcome are present in their entirety or they’re not. In the case of the typical cat fancier or dog lover, there's no particular reason for any of the factors to arise on account of their pet.

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by binocular » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:38 pm

Dhammanando wrote:The only sort of pet-keeping that would perforce entail breaking the first precept is where the animal is of a kind that needs to be fed live prey, such as a pogona or a boa constrictor.

As for breaking the first precept "by implication", there isn't any such thing. Either the transgressional factors of object, perception, intention, effort and outcome are present in their entirety or they’re not. In the case of the typical cat fancier or dog lover, there's no particular reason for any of the factors to arise on account of their pet.
As a cat owner, I know full well that animals had to be killed in order to make food for our cat.

What does it matter if I don't know which cow or pig or fish exactly was killed, parts of which our cat now eats? I know that some had to be killed.
And because I continue to buy meat and cat food, I am, given the principle of supply and demand, furthering the meat industry.
I can't say I am innocent in the killing of animals. I am basically simply paying other people to do it.
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by chownah » Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:39 pm

Dhammanando wrote:The only sort of pet-keeping that would perforce entail breaking the first precept is where the animal is of a kind that needs to be fed live prey, such as a pogona or a boa constrictor.
What if a person had a pet rat and a pet python and he/she just let them play together?
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by No_Mind » Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:18 pm

binocular wrote:
Dhammanando wrote:The only sort of pet-keeping that would perforce entail breaking the first precept is where the animal is of a kind that needs to be fed live prey, such as a pogona or a boa constrictor.

As for breaking the first precept "by implication", there isn't any such thing. Either the transgressional factors of object, perception, intention, effort and outcome are present in their entirety or they’re not. In the case of the typical cat fancier or dog lover, there's no particular reason for any of the factors to arise on account of their pet.
As a cat owner, I know full well that animals had to be killed in order to make food for our cat.

What does it matter if I don't know which cow or pig or fish exactly was killed, parts of which our cat now eats? I know that some had to be killed.
And because I continue to buy meat and cat food, I am, given the principle of supply and demand, furthering the meat industry.
I can't say I am innocent in the killing of animals. I am basically simply paying other people to do it.
There is also another aspect. Thousands of animals (mice, rabbits, chimpanzees) are used for animal trials of medicines .. from cancer to alzheimer's and everything in between. Every time I consume a medicine I am using something made after giving tremendous pain to an animal.

Also .. in school biology frog dissections are compulsory ..

I have always had lot of trouble with the First Precept. Even if one is a vegetarian not possible to adhere to it strictly. One can do ones best .. but sometimes one has to kill in order to survive.
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