Killing Rats

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No_Mind
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by No_Mind » Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:14 am

chownah wrote:
No_Mind wrote:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Maybe you should just get a pet rat? :stirthepot:
Venerable,

I have not thought of keeping them as a pet .. but in past made overtures of peace by offering them food, xanax and rum. They consumed what was given and remained aggressive.

Policy of appeasement has failed. They bite the hand that feeds .. literally and metaphorically.

:namaste:
Maybe you should worship them....build a temple to them. I think india is exceptional in its diversity of temples compard to the USofA.

chownah
Chownah .. it is impossible for you to antagonise me .. I have only love and metta for you .. my bro :hug:
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by chownah » Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:45 am

No_Mind wrote: Chownah .. it is impossible for you to antagonise me .. I have only love and metta for you .. my bro :hug:
Oh, good.
You know if it costs the equivalent of US$4,000 to keep a dog in india then low income people in the USofA would not be keeping them. Doesn't this show that there is something exceptional going on in the USofA....or that perhaps there is something exceptional going on in india? You say your neighbors have dogs. Are your neighbors low income people? Do they pay US$4,000 equivalent to keep their dogs?
Something doesn't add up here. In Thailand my wife keeps a dog and it probably costs her 200 baht a month for food which works out to about US$6....I don't know what the equivalent would be but it is not in the least a strain on her budget. I should point out that we are not low income in thailand. Our household budget puts us at slightly above middle income....but our neighbors who are low income or just below middle income mostly all keep dogs. They have almost no expenditures from this in that they mostly feed the dogs table scraps I think while my wife feeds mostly commercial dog food. Couldn't you have one of your domestic helpers (I think you mentioned having one at least...perhaps I am mistaken) or some elderly family member organize table scraps for a dog?
chownah

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by No_Mind » Tue Feb 07, 2017 6:36 am

chownah wrote:
No_Mind wrote: Chownah .. it is impossible for you to antagonise me .. I have only love and metta for you .. my bro :hug:
Oh, good.
You know if it costs the equivalent of US$4,000 to keep a dog in india then low income people in the USofA would not be keeping them. Doesn't this show that there is something exceptional going on in the USofA....or that perhaps there is something exceptional going on in india? You say your neighbors have dogs. Are your neighbors low income people? Do they pay US$4,000 equivalent to keep their dogs?
Something doesn't add up here. In Thailand my wife keeps a dog and it probably costs her 200 baht a month for food which works out to about US$6....I don't know what the equivalent would be but it is not in the least a strain on her budget. I should point out that we are not low income in thailand. Our household budget puts us at slightly above middle income....but our neighbors who are low income or just below middle income mostly all keep dogs. They have almost no expenditures from this in that they mostly feed the dogs table scraps I think while my wife feeds mostly commercial dog food. Couldn't you have one of your domestic helpers (I think you mentioned having one at least...perhaps I am mistaken) or some elderly family member organize table scraps for a dog?
chownah
Okay ..

Time -- I have had dogs in the past. Now I do not have time to take care of one. I believe dogs should be taken out for regular walks twice a day. No time for that. That is the main reason.

Cost -- It costs about Rs 6,000 per month to keep a dog here (cost of treatment and vaccinations over life time included). At INR 67 to USD 1 it is USD 90 per month or USD 1,080 per year (nominal value). At PPP factor of of 3.8 it is USD 4,100 in U.S. value (I would face same pinch as an American spending $4,100 when I spend $1,080).

Lifestyle / Culture - We do not have table scraps of meat since we eat chicken and not mutton (no red meat). I am a vegetarian most of the time. If .. I eat meat .. it is mostly as kebabs of some sort .. boneless.

Chownah please drop your ad-hominem attacks. Why I will or will not keep a dog is my business. The OP is about ethics of killing rats not comparative cost of keeping dogs as pet.

Edit Add 1 ) One error I have made is .. INR 6,000 is cost of a maintaining a well fed German shepherd. A terrier would cost less to feed. Say half. So USD 2,050 in PPP value.
Last edited by No_Mind on Tue Feb 07, 2017 11:23 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Mkoll
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Mkoll » Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:13 am

No_Mind wrote:Time -- I have had dogs in the past. Now I do not have time to take care of one. I believe dogs should be taken out for regular walks twice a day. No time for that. That is the main reason.

Cost -- It costs about Rs 6,000 per month to keep a dog here (cost of treatment and vaccinations over life time included). At INR 67 to USD 1 it is USD 90 per month or USD 1,080 per year (nominal value). At PPP factor of of 3.8 it is USD 4,100 in U.S. value (I would face same pinch as an American spending $4,100 when spending $1,080). Breakdown -- cost of meat at 300 grams of chicken (with bone) a day the cost of dog food comes to [(300 grams x 30 days x INR 160 per kilo) ÷ 67 x 3.8 = USD 82 and add cost of treatment over life time of the dog and it averages out to $90 per month. Dog food costs about same or slightly more.
I'm glad you think this way. The people who have dogs, especially dogs who are bred to be active, and don't give them enough exercise are being cruel IMO. I had a housemate once who kept his poor dog in the laundry room. I never saw him walk her once and he had plenty of time to do so. People like this shouldn't get a dog. Neither should those who are too busy to take care of it regularly.

Medical treatment for dogs can be very expensive. They virtually inevitably get sick, usually multiple times over their lifespan with different ailments, and require veterinary care---this is what happened to my family's dog. I've read about people having to euthanize their dog because they couldn't afford the life-saving treatment. This is really sad. People who don't have pet insurance or have enough liquidity to care for their dog if it gets seriously sick or injured shouldn't get one because it's irresponsible IMO.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by binocular » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:10 am

seeker242 wrote:Alternatives to killing them could be to patch up all the umpteen holes. Or, find a different place to live.
Yes ... Good hygiene and storing everything in suitable animal-proof containers go a long way in preventing problems with various animals.

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by binocular » Thu Feb 09, 2017 10:28 am

Mkoll wrote:
binocular wrote:As a cat owner, I know full well that animals had to be killed in order to make food for our cat.

What does it matter if I don't know which cow or pig or fish exactly was killed, parts of which our cat now eats? I know that some had to be killed.
And because I continue to buy meat and cat food, I am, given the principle of supply and demand, furthering the meat industry.
I can't say I am innocent in the killing of animals. I am basically simply paying other people to do it.
As someone who drives, I know that bugs are smashing into my car and dying and I'm squishing them under my tires. So should I stop driving? As someone who walks, I know that I'm crushing bugs underfoot. Should I stop walking? I know that in bathing myself, I'm killing countless microbes and washing them down the drain. Should I stop bathing? I know that in drinking water, I'm either drinking microbes and killing them in my stomach acid or they've been killed already via water purification. Should I stop drinking water?

The fact of life is that beings are harmed and killed constantly. The Wheel of Life can just as aptly be called the Wheel of Death. We've got to draw the line somewhere. The Buddha drew it at intention because that is how kamma is created.
The fact that already simply because one is breathing, millions of other beings die, does not automatically imply that the only solution is to not breathe. Or not drive, or not dig over the garden, or not eat, or whichever.

Are you trying to construe innocence, by subsequently re-defining the principles by which guilt is constituted?

If you have any hand in the killing of others, you are guilty of killing. The degree of guilt varies, however. (The Law acknowledges this, hence there are different categories of homicide.)

Some people will go through a lot of mental and moral gymnastics in an effort to construe innonce. This effort, however, only proves their guilt.

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Mkoll » Thu Feb 09, 2017 9:29 pm

binocular wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
binocular wrote:As a cat owner, I know full well that animals had to be killed in order to make food for our cat.

What does it matter if I don't know which cow or pig or fish exactly was killed, parts of which our cat now eats? I know that some had to be killed.
And because I continue to buy meat and cat food, I am, given the principle of supply and demand, furthering the meat industry.
I can't say I am innocent in the killing of animals. I am basically simply paying other people to do it.
As someone who drives, I know that bugs are smashing into my car and dying and I'm squishing them under my tires. So should I stop driving? As someone who walks, I know that I'm crushing bugs underfoot. Should I stop walking? I know that in bathing myself, I'm killing countless microbes and washing them down the drain. Should I stop bathing? I know that in drinking water, I'm either drinking microbes and killing them in my stomach acid or they've been killed already via water purification. Should I stop drinking water?

The fact of life is that beings are harmed and killed constantly. The Wheel of Life can just as aptly be called the Wheel of Death. We've got to draw the line somewhere. The Buddha drew it at intention because that is how kamma is created.
The fact that already simply because one is breathing, millions of other beings die, does not automatically imply that the only solution is to not breathe. Or not drive, or not dig over the garden, or not eat, or whichever.

Are you trying to construe innocence, by subsequently re-defining the principles by which guilt is constituted?

If you have any hand in the killing of others, you are guilty of killing. The degree of guilt varies, however. (The Law acknowledges this, hence there are different categories of homicide.)

Some people will go through a lot of mental and moral gymnastics in an effort to construe innonce. This effort, however, only proves their guilt.
To your question, no. The purpose of all those examples was to lead up to the point I mentioned at the end:
Mkoll wrote:The fact of life is that beings are harmed and killed constantly. The Wheel of Life can just as aptly be called the Wheel of Death. We've got to draw the line somewhere. The Buddha drew it at intention because that is how kamma is created.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by binocular » Fri Feb 10, 2017 5:39 pm

Mkoll wrote:To your question, no. The purpose of all those examples was to lead up to the point I mentioned at the end:
Mkoll wrote:The fact of life is that beings are harmed and killed constantly. The Wheel of Life can just as aptly be called the Wheel of Death. We've got to draw the line somewhere. The Buddha drew it at intention because that is how kamma is created.
I asked just for verification. So far, it all looks like you're trying to construe innocence. When you talk of drawing the line, it suggests a reasoning process like in this example:

"Many people smoke marijuana. Because there are so many, we cannot punish them all, we just don't have the man power and prison utilities necessary for that. We have to draw the line somewhere. So we will punish only those who who have in their possession a pound of marijuana or more."

It's an utilitarian approach to morality that attempts to establish culpability based on how widely spread a problematic behavior is, or on how easy/difficult it is to prove guilt, not on some other criteria.

Note that in some cases, intention is irrelevant, referring here to a post by Ven. Dhammanando: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... do#p394784

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Anagarika » Fri Feb 10, 2017 6:37 pm

I haven't been on DW for a while, and visited via a link from another site. I saw this topic and, with thoughts of kamma and goodwill, thought I'd post a suggestion.

Since taking an anagarika ordination, I gave up most all of my stuff, and live in a former derelict house that sold for the price of a used Toyota Corolla. The house came with a good location near the Center for Southeast Asian Studies and the Burma Studies Center, but also, due to its condition (basically falling apart at the seams) and history, came with a recurrent mouse problem. Once the Burmese/Thai Hill Tribe people that I interact with on my travels to Chiang Rai have good housing and hot water, I will then, too.

Mindful of the whole Pānātipātā veramanī sikkhāpadam thing, I researched a solution. What has worked is this: glue traps. These traps (buy them or make them yourself) are typically seen as very inhumane, as they trap the rats and mice, then the animals then literally starve to death in the trap. However, the work around is this: Set the traps around the dwelling. Listen for the sound of the mouse and trap moving; check the traps once a day. Pick up the trap and go outside, and unlike the knucklehead in the video, go far way from your dwelling to, say, a park or open area. Bring with you some vegetable oil ( I use olive oil), and saturate the glue base and the teeny feets with the oil. Wait 5-10 minutes and soon, the rat wriggles free and runs away. Unlike our mindless friend in the video, make sure that the rat doesn't run somewhere where he/she is not wanted.


It's a perfect system: effective and nonlethal. It pisses off the mice, but I've found that they are suitably chastised, and, having caught and released 8-10 so far, they don't come back.

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:05 am

Anagarika wrote:It's a perfect system: effective and nonlethal.
It's not bad, but why waste olive oil, which costs a fortune in Thailand, when the most common of the country's non-lethal traps will cost you only one little lump of sticky rice per rat?
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Anagarika » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:00 am

HI Bhante:

Your suggestion is the best one, but using these traps ( I bought two of them) resulted in no catches. I learned that the mice might be smarter than me. I used peanut butter as bait ( the leading online suggestion) but the mice did not go for it. Maybe the sticky rice is the key. I know that there are days when I am in Thailand that I'd walk into a trap for a nice mango with sticky rice. :)

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:03 pm

Anagarika wrote:HI Bhante:

Your suggestion is the best one, but using these traps ( I bought two of them) resulted in no catches. I learned that the mice might be smarter than me.
The secret (as I learned from a visiting thudong monk) is to lightly toast the ball of sticky rice over a candle flame before attaching it to the dangling pin. Doing it this way I would catch a rat virtually every night and the captures only came to an end when the whole family had been safely removed.

I also made a modification to the trap by using a hacksaw to cut off the bottom quarter inch of the trapdoor. The resulting gap is too small for the trapped rat to escape through, but it ensures that its tail doesn't get damaged when the door snaps shut.

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:12 pm

These threads always remind me of Jasper Carrott's "I've got this mole..." sketch.



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Re: Killing Rats

Post by No_Mind » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:28 pm

About live capture and release.

Glue traps are in my opinion inhumane. I have used it once out of curiosity and banned them from my home. I have urged everyone I know to not use them. It is more humane (though bad Kamma) to use a break-back trap.

It is not quite possible to release a rat caught in a trap a mile away. Reason being it will die in unfamiliar surroundings. It is killing the rat by proxy.
Release rats within 100 yards of where they were caught. Releasing a rat into a strange area will almost surely result in his or her death.

PETA
Killing is much less likely to carry a risk of causing suffering than release in an unfamiliar area,

Guiding principles in the Humane Control of Rats and Mice
Besides those people near whose home I release it will kill me if they catch me doing so. Since rats invade my home at night .. the release will have to happen in very early morning to avoid ire of those who stay at the place of release .. honestly I do not want to walk a mile with a live rat, in a trap which is in a bag, at 4:30 AM instead of meditating .. as I said in OP there is a new one as soon as the preceding one dies .. I will have to keep on carrying rats a mile at 4:30 AM three times a week in perpetuity.

Dealing with rats are a tricky ethical dilemma. Insects do not feel pain and it is easier on one's ethics to kill mosquitoes.

I am not looking for approval of my method of using a vicious killing machine .. but after 2 decades of suffering (specially last Saturday) I accept I will have to live with the bad Kamma of killing them. But my trap will only be used if it causes instant death as other buyers have attested to (the reason for its purchase).

:namaste:
Last edited by No_Mind on Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:54 pm, edited 5 times in total.
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by pilgrim » Sat Feb 11, 2017 12:32 pm

Glue traps are messy. The cage traps Bhante recommended are the trap of choice in my country. Some people drown the rats after capture but the humane ones release the rats some distance away. The trick is in the bait. Use something that is irresistible to the rat. Stuff that have a strong smell such as like salted fish, durian seed or chicken bones. If that still doesn't work, local lore says one must put a flame to the trap to burn it lightly to remove the smell of adrenaline of the previous victim.

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Fluke » Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:31 pm

Release rats within 100 yards of where they were caught. Releasing a rat into a strange area will almost surely result in his or her death.

PETA
Killing is much less likely to carry a risk of causing suffering than release in an unfamiliar area,

Guiding principles in the Humane Control of Rats and Mice
Hm just my opinion and I may be wrong, but if I was the rat I'd rather take my chances in unfamiliar surroundings than be killed with a broken neck.

I had a rat last summer and caught it, released it about a mile away by the side of a river. There it had water to drink and could eat the insects living around the river.. I like to think it survived.
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Ho! ye who suffer! know
Ye suffer from yourselves. None else compels,
None other holds you that ye live and die,
And whirl upon the wheel, and hug and kiss
Its spokes of agony,
Its tire of tears, its nave of nothingness.

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Mkoll » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:36 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Release rats within 100 yards of where they were caught. Releasing a rat into a strange area will almost surely result in his or her death.

PETA
I'd like to see the study that supports this claim, if there is one. PETA provides no references on that page. Rats are evolutionarily successful and hardy creatures with a wide habitat distribution. I find it unlikely they would "surely die" if released in a non-extreme (e.g. freezing cold or blistering hot, desserts, etc.) environment.
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by pilgrim » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:21 pm

Mkoll wrote:
No_Mind wrote:
Release rats within 100 yards of where they were caught. Releasing a rat into a strange area will almost surely result in his or her death.

PETA
I'd like to see the study that supports this claim, if there is one. PETA provides no references on that page. Rats are evolutionarily successful and hardy creatures with a wide habitat distribution. I find it unlikely they would "surely die" if released in a non-extreme (e.g. freezing cold or blistering hot, desserts, etc.) environment.
PETA's aount is ridiculous. Rats have been known to jump ship, swim rivers, etc and colonised islands. 100 yards indeed. :rofl:

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Re: Killing Rats

Post by No_Mind » Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:56 am

pilgrim wrote: PETA's aount is ridiculous. Rats have been known to jump ship, swim rivers, etc and colonised islands. 100 yards indeed.
As a tangential topic (and not defending PETA's position) all we can conclude from rats jumping ships and colonising islands is that --

A ) rats survive very well in closed environs like sewers and ships.

B ) there might not have been a suitable predator on those islands like owls, eagles, snakes (in fact isolated islands lack predator birds among its native avian population).

If I let go a rat from a sewer in an open field it would likely be killed by an eagle or owl or snake because it does not know how to burrow quickly like a meadow rat. Also feeding practices in a sewer which it has known since birth will not work in an open field. Eating scraps of waste from a garbage dump and surviving by being a scavenger is entirely different from foraging and surviving on nuts and seeds in a park. Is it not? How will it know how to find nuts and seeds without being snatched up by an owl .. it was not taught by its mother.

There is some justification in PETA's belief .. maybe not 100 yards but relocating a rat from sewers and garbage dump of a highly populated locality to an open park two miles away is as good as killing it.

The other link I provided goes into details of U.K laws regarding release of trapped animals .. so not that it is entirely unfounded.

Also when we speak of rats colonising islands we do not have complete data .. maybe 1,000 rats were on a ship in Southampton when it departed for an island in the Pacific. Only 500 rats were alive when it arrived after 11 months (rest having died of malnutrition, disease and drowning) and of these 500 rats, 450 were eaten by predators in the first four weeks and 50 survived to give rise to a population of 10,000 within a decade. So probably there was 95% mortality.

We do not know .. there is not enough data on survival possibility of a single rat in a ship. All we can conclude is -- if 500 healthy rats are let loose on an island .. there will be 10,000 within a decade.

Chances are that of the 5,000 of us in this forum, vast majority will be here in 2047. But also by that time statistically speaking 10% of us would have died and 20% would have suffered from cancer and nearly 80% would be on hypertension medication (assuming the youngest member here today is no less than 20).

My own chances of being here is 2047 is bleak since I am above 40, have hypertension, high cholesterol and do not exercise.

90% of present DW members will be alive in 2047 does not translate to 90% possibility of me being alive in 2047.

How, when and why reproduction and survival of a species is successful is unknown .. and does not attest to the "hardiness" of a single individual of that species.
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Re: Killing Rats

Post by Mkoll » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:09 am

No_Mind wrote:My own chances of being here is 2047 is bleak since I am above 40, have hypertension, high cholesterol and do not exercise.
Bro, do you even lift? ;)

In all serious, you used to weight lift so I'm sure you understand and know how to keep fit and eat healthy. Why don't you anymore? :(
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Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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