English culture advantages and disadvantages

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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Twilight
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English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by Twilight » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:06 pm

mikenz66 wrote:You obviously haven't spent much time with Thai or Japanese people. The English are a rude lot compared to them...
Non-english northerners (germans, austrians, etc.) look similar to english in politeness only that they don't have a Kim Jhong Un inside witch makes it impossible to debate with them. Nobody ever complained about them. I have serious doubts thai or japanese could be like english on the inside. Proof of this is that the anti-debate, safe-space culture only developed in the english world and to a very very small degree in germany. In US/UK it completely took over all universities. That thing didn't develop out of nothing. It developed out of centuries of puritanism. It is the most anti-debate culture in the world.
This thread reminds me of the argumentation in this sutta:
True, I'm not saying everybody else except the english are perfect. All have their flaws. But what do you think about this good quality that english completely lack:
In ancient India, Greece and Tibet, the art of argumentation was an extremely important (and prestigious) activity. To win a formal debate was to demonstrate the truth of one’s school of thought or spiritual faith. The Buddha was a potent and charismatic debater who threatened the intellectual complacency of many Brahmins. The famous consequence of losing a debate in India was to lose one’s students, who would all convert to the winning school of thought. In Buddhist Tibet, monastic universities still put heavy emphasis on training students for debate, which is an essential part of the monastery curriculum.
This is why people changed their views so easily in the suttas after been refuted. In non-english cultures, if one has a debate and the other one is right they will think "oh, this guy was right about that. Good that I found out something new" and will be happy with the new thing they found out. There is even a saying "good that I found out so that I don't die stupid" or if somebody says you are wrong about something: "well let us know so that we don't die stupid". But when there is a Kim Jhong Un inside things are seen as "oh this guy thinks he's smarter than me. He can not be right cause that means he is smarter than me or something" or "if this guy is right and I am wrong it means I am stupid, that I am worthless as a buddhist etc" and it becomes impossible to change ones views because that is like saying "I am stupid" and debates are taken very personally. The person self esteem depends on the debate. And this is why the english even developed the relativistic view about everybody been right, developed even thuffer speech laws and even safe spaces. This thing did not come from nothing and is only present in the english world. That is how culture develops when everybody has a Kim Jhon Un inside. Another interesting thing is identify politics witch does not exist outside the english world, at least not in that form. This has to do with been an individualistic culture + centuries of puritanism:

PS: Do not get me wrong. This kind of culture has it's advantages (work oriented, fair, super calm, etc) but it's simply terrible for debates. It's the most anti-debate culture in the world. And what is even more terrible is that they expect you to subscribe to this culture and consider it superior just because they had a bigger empire than you at one point. If we would go down that logic, then the mongols are the best cause they had the biggest empire in history. Having a bigger empire does not mean your culture has no downsides whatsoever and that all the world should adopt it.
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You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
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How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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Twilight
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by Twilight » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:34 pm

It is also worth noting that culturally speaking, the english do not have the biggest empire in the world. Here is a map with latin europe and another map with the latin world at large:
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You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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SDC
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by SDC » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:36 pm

I guess you make a point...but instead of wasting more time talking about the differences, what is the solution? Why does either side have to change? Can't we just accept each other's differences?

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robertk
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by robertk » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:37 pm

here is the only map you need these days:
trumps world.jpg
trumps world.jpg (88.14 KiB) Viewed 855 times

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Twilight
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by Twilight » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:43 pm

SDC wrote:I guess you make a point...but instead of wasting more time talking about the differences, what is the solution? Why does either side have to change? Can't we just accept each other's differences?
It would be absolutely great if that could happen. That is what I am trying to show because until now, I've hardly seen any effort from the english not to change, but to at least be a little more tolerant about those who are not part of the english majority on the forum. People who come to the forum are not immigrants who should be forced to adapt to the new culture over night. This is what they do not understand: navigating and english forum means you do have to do an effort to fit in with the majority if you want to communicate well with people from there. But it should not be expected of you to transform yourself over night like an immigrant. Especially since not been an immigrant, you are not surounded by this kind of culture and only interact with it through the internet.

The reason I made this topic is to rise a little awareness about the problem because if there is no awareness, there is no chance of becoming more tolerant with the non-english minority.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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Twilight
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by Twilight » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:47 pm

robertk wrote:here is the only map you need these days:
Hahaha. And here is the world according to progressives :D :
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You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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SDC
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by SDC » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:54 pm

You're not the first person to point this out, but it would also be good to note that - speaking only for myself, as an American - that I refrain from saying many of the things that would be culturally acceptable in my everyday life when I post on DW because it would violate the ToS. I am sure I am not the only one who makes such concessions.

chownah
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by chownah » Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:58 pm

Twilight wrote:It would be absolutely great if that could happen. That is what I am trying to show because until now, I've hardly seen any effort from the english not to change, but to at least be a little more tolerant about those who are not part of the english majority on the forum. .....
.....
.....The reason I made this topic is to rise a little awareness about the problem because if there is no awareness, there is no chance of becoming more tolerant with the non-english minority.
This reply is to everyone,
Especially to everyone who posts here and is not a native english speaker,

Do you find a significant degree of intolerace directed towards you here at dhammawheel because you are not a native english speaker and (supposedly) of a different culture?

chownah

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Twilight
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by Twilight » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:13 pm

You're not the first person to point this out, but it would also be good to note that - speaking only for myself, as an American - that I refrain from saying many of the things that would be culturally acceptable in my everyday life when I post on DW because it would violate the ToS. I am sure I am not the only one who makes such concessions.
I agree. You have a point here. I'm not trying to say I never made any kind of mistakes while debating over here.
chownah wrote:
Twilight wrote:It would be absolutely great if that could happen. That is what I am trying to show because until now, I've hardly seen any effort from the english not to change, but to at least be a little more tolerant about those who are not part of the english majority on the forum. .....
.....
.....The reason I made this topic is to rise a little awareness about the problem because if there is no awareness, there is no chance of becoming more tolerant with the non-english minority.
This reply is to everyone,
Especially to everyone who posts here and is not a native english speaker,

Do you find a significant degree of intolerace directed towards you here at dhammawheel because you are not a native english speaker and (supposedly) of a different culture?

chownah
Yes. The first moment I don't speak like a politician I am labeled a monster, told that I am not debating correctly, have people assume all kind of evil intentions been behind etc. I was not trained ever since little to speak like a politician. I was trained the opposite - trained to be honest and blunt. I understand one has to adapt when speaking on an english-majority forum but there would be great if there would be at least a modicum of effort from the english-majority to tolerate people who are not english. And this can not happen if nobody is even aware that english culture is different than others and that it has downsides, such as been the most anti-debate culture in the world.

I am not at all a fan of "liberals" and their ideas in general. But they do have a point about tolerating people from different cultures. There is no smoke without a fire. I do not agree that people who immigrate in US for example should be allowed to keep their culture not doing any kind of efforts to adapt. But when it comes to people who never intend to immigrate in US and do not live in such a culture (such as on an internet forum), there should be a little more tolerance. Not too much tolerance, but just a little.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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aflatun
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by aflatun » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:26 pm

:rofl:


robertk wrote:here is the only map you need these days:
trumps world.jpg
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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aflatun
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by aflatun » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:27 pm

:lol:
Twilight wrote:
robertk wrote:here is the only map you need these days:
Hahaha. And here is the world according to progressives :D :
"People often get too quick to say 'there's no self. There's no self...no self...no self.' There is self, there is focal point, its not yours. That's what not self is."

Ninoslav Ñāṇamoli
Senses and the Thought-1, 42:53

"Those who create constructs about the Buddha,
Who is beyond construction and without exhaustion,
Are thereby damaged by their constructs;
They fail to see the Thus-Gone.

That which is the nature of the Thus-Gone
Is also the nature of this world.
There is no nature of the Thus-Gone.
There is no nature of the world."

Nagarjuna
MMK XXII.15-16

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SDC
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by SDC » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:03 pm

Twilight wrote:
You're not the first person to point this out, but it would also be good to note that - speaking only for myself, as an American - that I refrain from saying many of the things that would be culturally acceptable in my everyday life when I post on DW because it would violate the ToS. I am sure I am not the only one who makes such concessions.
I agree. You have a point here. I'm not trying to say I never made any kind of mistakes while debating over here.
From a cultural and Dhammic standpoint, the ToS is an attempt for all to meet in the middle. While it may favor a certain culture's mode of speaking, I think that is merely incidental; it is only due to the rather mild attempt, if you ask me, to promote Right Speech through the ToS.

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DNS
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by DNS » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:13 pm

Saying "English culture" is too vast a term. There are English speakers who are Jewish, Irish, Anglo-Saxon, German-ancestry, Italian American, people down under who box kangaroos, kiwis, African-Americans, etc. They all have distinct cultures/ sub-cultures.

I think the thing you are complaining about is more to do with safe spaces and people going out of their way not to offend minority groups and other groups; which is characteristic of nations which are very heterogeneous/diverse like the U.S., the UK, etc. It has some good qualities; for example why would we want to offend certain groups or people, but sometimes goes too far in not allowing debate.

As SDC noted, we do allow debates, but there is no reason it cannot be done in a polite way, not a forceful, aggressive way and still remain in compliance with the terms of service.

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robertk
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by robertk » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:18 pm

Twilight wrote:
robertk wrote:here is the only map you need these days:
Hahaha. And here is the world according to progressives :D :
Awesome, thanks for that! I will pass it around.. ;) :toast:

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Twilight
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Re: English culture advantages and disadvantages

Post by Twilight » Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:20 pm

I think the thing you are complaining about is more to do with safe spaces and people going out of their way not to offend minority groups and other groups; which is characteristic of nations which are very heterogeneous/diverse like the U.S., the UK, etc. It has some good qualities; for example why would we want to offend certain groups or people, but sometimes goes too far in not allowing debate.
It is not this I was rising awareness about. There are big differences between northern europeans and latin europeans. And this has to do with centuries of puritanism not with multiculturalism. In my country there happens to exist both these cultures simoultaniously in different regions and it is like 2 different countries in this regard. The english have simply taken this to the extreme. Just as albanians are in one extreme of things, the english are in another. I think we all can agree that honor killings are bad cultural characteristic. And the same can be said about been anti-debate. Or for example latin people have the well known corruption problem. All cultures have good and bad things, none is perfect.
As SDC noted, we do allow debates, but there is no reason it cannot be done in a polite way, not a forceful, aggressive way and still remain in compliance with the terms of service.
I am extremely gladful that debates are allowed and that this is probably the most liberal buddhist forum to ever exist. And I agree there have been times when I have been too aggresive. What I was complaining about was been asked innumerable times throughout the topic things like "what are you trying to do " or " are you trying to convert people to your view" - when I was simply having a normal debate. There is always this "reading into" things and assuming things about the interlocutor because he is not debating in a standard english manner.

I just wanted to rise awareness about different cultural characteristics of english people because without awareness about the problem, there can never be any kind of understanding and therefore little tolerance.
Last edited by Twilight on Tue Jan 24, 2017 4:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
You'll have a better chance finding a moderate rebel in Ildib than finding a buddhist who ever changed his views. Views are there to be clung to. They are there to be defended with all one's might. Whatever clinging one will removed in regards to sense pleasures by practicing the path - that should be compensated with increased clinging to views. This is the fundamental balance of the noble 8thfold path. The yin and yang.
----------
Consciousness and no-self explained in drawings: link
How stream entry is achieved. Mahasi / Zen understanding vs Sutta understanding: link

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