Technology and the multiplication of labor

[poto]

I would like to share with you all some of my thoughts on technology, mechanization and the multiplication of labor.

As I see it, the primary reason our human civilization has been able to flourish to it's heights today is because of the use of technology to multiply labor. The sole reason we are able to sustain a population in the billions is because of this multiplication effect.

At the dawn of civilization humans began to develop agriculture. The planting of crops and the keeping of animals allowed humans to support a much larger population than hunter-gathering tribes. During this time animals were used along with simple technology like hand tools to multiply human labor and allow an abundance of food to be produced.

This abundance produced from the slave labor of animals (and humans) allowed other humans to specialize in trades other than food production. Over time, many trades and specializations developed over the numerous different societies that developed. As I see it, this surplus productivity can be tied directly to the further development of these cultures, arts and sciences. People who did not have as productive methods of multiplying their labor had to work much harder just to survive, and as such would not have had the time or energy to develop a complex civilization.

Once the industrial revolution came about we began to replace the slave labor of animals and the minor multiplication effect of hand tools with machines. This mechanization allowed for vastly increased productivity and the expansion of our population into the billions. With this great multiplication of labor also came greater problems. Just as mechanization increased productivity in beneficial things like farming, it also increased the lethality of weapons by multiplying the effects of their labor too.

Despite the problems our civilization has managed to forge ahead, continuing to produce greater abundance with greater multiplication of labor. This is a trend that should continue, and if it does it will one day produce a post-scarcity world.

I don't see technology as bad or evil. It's just a way to multiply labor, and if used skillfully it can produce great benefits.

Now, I'm sure by this point there will be some of you reading this that will be raging about resources and the environment. I'd first like to address resources. As our technological sophistication expands, we will discover and create new resources, as well as finding more efficient ways to utilize and recycle old resources. This has been proven itself true time and time again, yet many people still bemoan how we will run out of this or that. It's true that resources are finite, but human capacity to innovate is infinite! In my view, that more than compensates for the finite nature of available resources.

The second is the environment. As I have stated many times, I am in favor of environmental protections and I do consider myself an environmentalist. I fully understand that the multiplication of labor to the scale it is today has resulted in many environmental problems. However, I've also seen successes in cleaning up the environmental damage we have caused. If our multiplication of labor continues to increase, along with technological advancements, logic follows that it should require much less labor in the future to clean up environmental problems. I'm not proposing that we wait forever to take action on environmental issues, but I would like to see caution urged on issues that are uncertain or the effects of which are not fully known or understood. As time passes and our scientific knowledge base expands along with out waste treatment and pollution control technology improving, taking skillful action to help clean up the environment should get much easier. That's all I'm trying to say.

OK, now back to the topic.

As Buddhists, I feel we have the chance to use technology to multiply our efforts at attaining enlightenment, as well as helping to lessen the suffering of other beings. In my business I use computers to multiply my labor. I automate as much as possible and try to get the maximum benefit from my labor. I would like to apply that same principal to Buddhism. I haven't seen very much being done yet in that respect, so it looks like there's a lot of room for innovation.

I would like to help build a future world with a post-scarcity of enlightenment. We have vast production capacity which has resulted in huge surpluses of many material goods, so much so that we are near post-scarcity for material goods. However, producing post-scarcity of enlightenment would likely benefit us more than a post-scarcity of mere material goods. I have some specific ideas on how to make this happen, and in truth, I have been quietly pondering them for some time. However, I have very rarely spoken directly about these things, and I'm hoping to get feedback from fellow Buddhists on the subject.

Basically, without going into too many details just yet, I'm wondering how you all feel about using technology to multiply the productivity of your practice?

[Dugu]

If I can have a robot go to work and bring home the paycheck so I can spend my whole day in practice would be nice.

[poto]

If I can have a robot go to work and bring home the paycheck so I can spend my whole day in practice would be nice.

Once our civilization reaches true post-scarcity, something like that might be possible. Unfortunately, I think we're still many years away from robotic slave labor being able to completely replace human labor. I've often thought it would be nice to have robots to cook and clean. While I'm doing those menial tasks I do sometimes think the time spent on them could be better used if I was able to automate them. Maybe one day... of course, that wasn't really what I meant when I started this thread. I meant more along the lines of technology that we have available today, and that which will be available in the near future. Guess I probably should have mentioned a few details after all.

OK here goes. I was thinking more along the lines of direct brain interfaces for computers, bio-feedback equipment, and direct brain stimulation to assist in learning and meditation. Things like being able to download Buddhist teachings directly into your brain. Also, things like using AI (artificial intelligence) or at least partial-AI along with a direct brain interface to help with guided meditations. We have some primitive partial-AI now, although, it's mostly domain-based AI, not true AI.

In a few years whole human brain computer simulations will be possible. When that time comes it may be possible that we could map and simulate the brain of a Sotapanna or Arahant. If we can map and simulate such a thing, we should be able to build an emulator for other humans to use. That may make it possible to become at least a Sotapanna in a very short time period, perhaps even instantly. The concept of a downloadable Arahantship fascinates me.

I feel the implications of these types of technologies are enormous. Such things may help us condense lifetimes of study and practice down to hours or minutes and would be a huge multiplication of spiritual labor.

I haven't really seen anybody else talking about this, much less actually working on making it happen. It's something I'm very interested in doing, and was just wondering if other Buddhists feel the same way.

[zavk]

In a few years whole human brain computer simulations will be possible. When that time comes it may be possible that we could map and simulate the brain of a Sotapanna or Arahant. If we can map and simulate such a thing, we should be able to build an emulator for other humans to use. That may make it possible to become at least a Sotapanna in a very short time period, perhaps even instantly. The concept of a downloadable Arahantship fascinates me.

But this would require the tricky task of identifying a Sotapanna or Arahant! Anyway to my understanding, although mind/consciousness and body/matter are interrelated it is said that body/matter is not the cause of mind/consciousness. So it may not be possible to induce an Awakened mind/consciousness simply by working on the level of body/matter which includes the brain, synapses and all.

To answer your specific question about using technology to facilitate the means of Awakening, I think it can be helpful if done skilfully. I'm all for the development of those use of technology if they can be done.

----------------------------------------------

However, I would like to comment on your broader claims about the link between technological progress and material comfort and its potential to bring about greater material wellbeing for all. I think that is a noble aspiration.

It would be great if things pan out that way--as you say, according to 'common sense' logic it should. The possibility of a world where technological means of production bring about material wellbeing for all is a great ideal to work towards. However, the reality of the present situation raises many questions about this ideal.

If we just look, for example, at:



And also the percentage of the world's population living on less than $1 a day:



(I wonder if the whole of Russia can be put in the top bracket....)

We have vast production capacity which has resulted in huge surpluses of many material goods, so much so that we are near post-scarcity for material goods.

According to the maps above it would seem that the 'huge surpluses of many material goods' is enjoyed only by a small group of 'we'.

The maps above suggest that while 'we' the minority in European, North American and Oceanic countries are enjoying near post-scarcity of material goods, 'they' in the majority of the world are not experiencing the same luxury. Not to mention that even within European, North American and Oceanic countries, there are many who are not part of this 'we'--there are many under-privileged social groups within these countries who do not have the means to partake in the huge surpluses of material goods.

--------------------------------------------------

I am not trivialising your desire to see greater material wellbeing (and consequently, greater spiritual wellbeing) for all, Poto. As I've said, it is a noble aspiration and I too hope for the same.

However, I'm not quite sure if 'progress' would proceed as linearly or smoothly as you imagine. Despite this being a 'globalized age', the current state of affairs suggests that 'progress' has not panned out as linearly or smoothly throughout the world as thought. No doubt there has been immense technological progress. And as you suggest, technology has brought about much improvements in many societies. However, these improvements are not equally distributed.

There are, of course, many complex economic, political and social reasons for this unequal rate of 'progress'/access to material comfort. I do not have the expertise to give a comprehensive answer (if such an answer is even possible, given the complexity of the situation). However, on a more personal, ethical level, I would speculate that some reasons might be because 'we' are not able to see:

1.) that 'we' are really not that homogenous, that there are many amongst us who are not living in comfort as we are;

2.) that the vast majority of 'they' in the rest of the world are nowhere near the levels of material wellbeing that 'we' have;

3.) that in some instances, the wellbeing that 'we' experience is at the expense of 'they'.

This whole business of seeing through the arbitrariness of 'we/I', and developing compassion and the volition to work for the wellbeing of 'they/you' is hard work. This is what I would call 'spiritual labor'. It is something that I grapple with. I experience it when, for example, I encounter a homeless person and the first thing I feel is this instinctive urge to turn away, to pretend that s/he wasn't there.......

Now, I wonder if technology could ever ease the burden of this spiritual labor....

[pink_trike]

1.) that 'we' are really not that homogenous, that there are many amongst us who are not living in comfort as we are;

2.) that the vast majority of 'they' in the rest of the world are nowhere near the levels of material wellbeing that 'we' have;

3.) that in some instances, the wellbeing that 'we' experience is at the expense of 'they'.

Agreed. And I would add:

4. There are many many powerful people and institutions that think this situation is just fine - and they will do everything they can to protect and expand this configuration to their further benefit.

[Lampang]

30,000 children a day die of easily preventable causes (the principle one being capitalism).

There's no techno-fantasy of "post-scarcity" for them. Just a shallow dirt grave. And pretending otherwise isn't just wrong; it's profoundly offensive.

that in some instances, the wellbeing that 'we' experience is at the expense of 'they'.

I think you could safely amend that to say that "in almost all instances, the wellbeing..."

[poto]

In a few years whole human brain computer simulations will be possible. When that time comes it may be possible that we could map and simulate the brain of a Sotapanna or Arahant. If we can map and simulate such a thing, we should be able to build an emulator for other humans to use. That may make it possible to become at least a Sotapanna in a very short time period, perhaps even instantly. The concept of a downloadable Arahantship fascinates me.

But this would require the tricky task of identifying a Sotapanna or Arahant! Anyway to my understanding, although mind/consciousness and body/matter are interrelated it is said that body/matter is not the cause of mind/consciousness. So it may not be possible to induce an Awakened mind/consciousness simply by working on the level of body/matter which includes the brain, synapses and all.

To answer your specific question about using technology to facilitate the means of Awakening, I think it can be helpful if done skilfully. I'm all for the development of those use of technology if they can be done.

With detailed brain scans I believe it should be possible to identify a Sotapanna or Arahant.

These people http://www.biocybernaut.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; have claimed to seen a difference in the brainwave patterns of advanced Zen mediators. Although, I think their approach is crude, I think it also shows some promise. If people can benefit from our current primitive state of brainwave and biofeedback technology, we should be able to do much better in the future, especially when we have whole brain simulators and emulators available.

We will in time be able to fully simulate consciousness. Even if we can't find a full Awakened Arahant, even if there are none left in the world, we will be able to find somebody with some level of attainment. Starting even from some lower level of attainment, it will be possible to build a baseline for Awakened brain activity and run simulations until we crack it. The results of such experiments should be clear, either they succeed or they fail. If they fail, we just keep trying until success is achieved.

I don't believe that it's impossible to do such a thing. Even if as you say we are working at the body/matter level, I do not see how this is impossible to produce enlightenment through such means.

----------------------------------------------

However, I would like to comment on your broader claims about the link between technological progress and material comfort and its potential to bring about greater material wellbeing for all. I think that is a noble aspiration.

It would be great if things pan out that way--as you say, according to 'common sense' logic it should. The possibility of a world where technological means of production bring about material wellbeing for all is a great ideal to work towards. However, the reality of the present situation raises many questions about this ideal.

If we just look, for example, at:



And also the percentage of the world's population living on less than $1 a day:



(I wonder if the whole of Russia can be put in the top bracket....)

We have vast production capacity which has resulted in huge surpluses of many material goods, so much so that we are near post-scarcity for material goods.

According to the maps above it would seem that the 'huge surpluses of many material goods' is enjoyed only by a small group of 'we'.

The maps above suggest that while 'we' the minority in European, North American and Oceanic countries are enjoying near post-scarcity of material goods, 'they' in the majority of the world are not experiencing the same luxury. Not to mention that even within European, North American and Oceanic countries, there are many who are not part of this 'we'--there are many under-privileged social groups within these countries who do not have the means to partake in the huge surpluses of material goods.

--------------------------------------------------

I am not trivialising your desire to see greater material wellbeing (and consequently, greater spiritual wellbeing) for all, Poto. As I've said, it is a noble aspiration and I too hope for the same.

However, I'm not quite sure if 'progress' would proceed as linearly or smoothly as you imagine. Despite this being a 'globalized age', the current state of affairs suggests that 'progress' has not panned out as linearly or smoothly throughout the world as thought. No doubt there has been immense technological progress. And as you suggest, technology has brought about much improvements in many societies. However, these improvements are not equally distributed.

There are, of course, many complex economic, political and social reasons for this unequal rate of 'progress'/access to material comfort. I do not have the expertise to give a comprehensive answer (if such an answer is even possible, given the complexity of the situation). However, on a more personal, ethical level, I would speculate that some reasons might be because 'we' are not able to see:

1.) that 'we' are really not that homogenous, that there are many amongst us who are not living in comfort as we are;

2.) that the vast majority of 'they' in the rest of the world are nowhere near the levels of material wellbeing that 'we' have;

3.) that in some instances, the wellbeing that 'we' experience is at the expense of 'they'.

This whole business of seeing through the arbitrariness of 'we/I', and developing compassion and the volition to work for the wellbeing of 'they/you' is hard work. This is what I would call 'spiritual labor'. It is something that I grapple with. I experience it when, for example, I encounter a homeless person and the first thing I feel is this instinctive urge to turn away, to pretend that s/he wasn't there.......

Now, I wonder if technology could ever ease the burden of this spiritual labor....

Yes, I am well aware of the problems an inequalities in our world. It saddens me that we have not yet achieved post-scarcity, but I am certain that we will. Things like self-replicating machines, and table-top factories are no longer 'techno-fantasies' of science fiction.

phpBB .

direct link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iMhG4fWQnlE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://reprap.org/bin/view/Main/WebHome" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The goal in future versions the RepRap are to be able to completely reproduce itself, including it's circuitry and motors. Eventually, if successful, we'll have a tabletop device capable of producing nearly any material product. Things like electronics, robotics, household appliances and many other consumer goods traditionally produced in factories will all be printable from home for free. All people will need to do is supply the raw materials and the energy to make them. Once these types of technologies are more advanced and widely distributed, our world will be much closer to post-scarcity.

"The future is here. It's just not widely distributed yet." - William Gibson

[zavk]

I don't believe that it's impossible to do such a thing. Even if as you say we are working at the body/matter level, I do not see how this is impossible to produce enlightenment through such means.

Hi Poto

I'm not acquainted with the kind of technological experiments you are talking about--they do seem fascinating! I was merely restating the orthodox Buddhist view of how 'mind precedes' everything. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could elaborate on this.....

Yes, I am well aware of the problems an inequalities in our world. It saddens me that we have not yet achieved post-scarcity, but I am certain that we will. Things like self-replicating machines, and table-top factories are no longer 'techno-fantasies' of science fiction.

I didn't think that you were unaware of those problems--one would have to be extremely pigheaded to refuse to acknowledge those issues! But I think we need to be more precise about the claim in question here.

If people are questioning this so-called 'techno-fantasy' (not my term but a useful one nonetheless), they are not questioning the ability of technology to perform tasks with more efficiency per se. What is in question is the idea that technological development will and can only ever lead to social progress.

Perhaps I went off on an unnecessary tangent in my previous post. But I was merely trying point out that given the current state of affairs, there are many conditions that need to be addressed before technological development can bring about the progress that you describe. Or at the very least, these conditions need to be addressed in tandem with technological development.

These conditions (social, political, moral, and so forth) require various other means--they cannot be addressed by technological means alone, no matter how advanced technology becomes. Taking a Buddhist perspective, if technological development is to bring about social progress for all, then it will only happen dependently upon other conditions.

So is what is being described as a 'techno-fantasy' is more precisely the idea that technological development will inevitably lead to social progress. The technological capabilities like the ones you've described are not being derided as fantasies as such.

You do seem to have a very strong conviction that technological development will surely lead to social progress. It is, however, not my intention to denigrate your belief with the term 'techno-fantasy'; I'm not saying that you have your head in the clouds or anything like that. But I do think this argument of techno-fantasy (in the sense that I've described above) can be helpful in drawing attention to the conditions surrounding technological development, even if one doesn't subscribe to it.

[poto]

I don't believe that it's impossible to do such a thing. Even if as you say we are working at the body/matter level, I do not see how this is impossible to produce enlightenment through such means.

Hi Poto

I'm not acquainted with the kind of technological experiments you are talking about--they do seem fascinating! I was merely restating the orthodox Buddhist view of how 'mind precedes' everything. Maybe someone more knowledgeable could elaborate on this.....

I am not a scholarly Buddhist myself, so I don't feel I'm qualified to comment from that perspective.

However, I do think that as neuroscience is rapidly advancing it offers us a chance to understand these things from a scientific perspective. More than that, it gives us a chance to skillful develop technology that can benefit our practice.

Yes, I am well aware of the problems an inequalities in our world. It saddens me that we have not yet achieved post-scarcity, but I am certain that we will. Things like self-replicating machines, and table-top factories are no longer 'techno-fantasies' of science fiction.

I didn't think that you were unaware of those problems--one would have to be extremely pigheaded to refuse to acknowledge those issues! But I think we need to be more precise about the claim in question here.

If people are questioning this so-called 'techno-fantasy' (not my term but a useful one nonetheless), they are not questioning the ability of technology to perform tasks with more efficiency per se. What is in question is the idea that technological development will and can only ever lead to social progress.

Perhaps I went off on an unnecessary tangent in my previous post. But I was merely trying point out that given the current state of affairs, there are many conditions that need to be addressed before technological development can bring about the progress that you describe. Or at the very least, these conditions need to be addressed in tandem with technological development.

These conditions (social, political, moral, and so forth) require various other means--they cannot be addressed by technological means alone, no matter how advanced technology becomes. Taking a Buddhist perspective, if technological development is to bring about social progress for all, then it will only happen dependently upon other conditions.

So is what is being described as a 'techno-fantasy' is more precisely the idea that technological development will inevitably lead to social progress. The technological capabilities like the ones you've described are not being derided as fantasies as such.

You do seem to have a very strong conviction that technological development will surely lead to social progress. It is, however, not my intention to denigrate your belief with the term 'techno-fantasy'; I'm not saying that you have your head in the clouds or anything like that. But I do think this argument of techno-fantasy (in the sense that I've described above) can be helpful in drawing attention to the conditions surrounding technological development, even if one doesn't subscribe to it.

I don't think that technological progress by itself will fix everything. Although, I do see technology as offering many solutions to present and future problems. The key, as I see it, is in how we use it. This is samsara, and as such I don't expect perfection. I just think things could be done better than they are now, and I'm hopeful when I see progress towards making things better.

If we are able to use technology to help everyone become a Sotapanna who wants it, then I think that has great social implications. Likewise, if we use technology to achieve post-scarcity in goods, that has wide-reaching social implications as well. Both of those things combined may not solve all the world's problems, but certainly it would be much improved over today's conditions.

I was hoping this conversation would focus more on the positive and less on the negative, and I thank you Zavk for staying polite and civil, it's much appreciated. Of course, discussing the material aspect of this and it's problems are needed, as we are discussing technology and it's implications, so the negative aspects are relevant. I just hope it doesn't overshadow the beneficial aspects, particularly of neuroscience and the great things that will soon be possible.

Also, if there any other technological enthusiasts here interested in learning/doing more there's OpenEEG:
http://openeeg.sourceforge.net/doc/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I've thought that something like OpenEEG would seem to be a good open source framework to build on. As both the software and hardware grow more advanced, such efforts should become easier and more productive. Personally, I'd be interested in being part of a similar Buddhist effort. I'm better at communicating with machines than people anyways.

[poto]

Was hoping there might be more comments on this.

Does anybody think it's wrong to be involved with developing new technology to assist one's practice and spread the Dhamma?

I am curious, because I see threads here where others have no problem speculating on things like 'what if we lived in a Buddhist world', but few seem interested in discussing methods that may actually help make that a reality???

[pt1]

Hi poto, I was wondering about this a few years back, here’s how I remember approaching the subject:

What’s the goal? – Insight into all conditioned dhammas being anatta, anicca and dukkha.

How does this happen? – Through thorough understanding of all dhammas (so, of mental states and factors, as well as their interaction with matter).

What would be the best aid towards that goal? -A teacher who is:
(1) an ariya that already has a direct understanding of all the dhammas,
(2) has the ability to teach what he has directly understood,
(3) has the ability to read other’s minds (e.g. he could read my mind and point out – “that was a moment of generosity that was accompanied by right view, neutral feeling, right mindfulness, etc, or that was a moment of greed that was accompanied by concentration, ignorance, pleasant feeling, etc”. The idea is that this would help me to develop direct understanding of various mental states, instead of taking them for (my)self as usual).

The challenges of replicating such an aid technologically (i.e. making a "virtual ariya"):

(a) reading the current mental state and the accompanying factors. Neural science currently (to my knowledge) has a different focus than Buddhism – it can read electrical impulses, fields and chemical reactions that are currently happening in the brain. However, such readings do not help with insight – i.e. they cannot tell me whether the present moment is accompanied by mindfulness or not, does it have right or wrong concentration, was there right view or not (so just on/off states for various mental factors, we’re not even talking about their different intensities and kinds)etc. So, the challenge is to somehow translate/align the scientific readings with Buddhist perspective on the mind (in particular, abhidhamma which has the most detailed model of the mind in the Buddhist sense) that is conducive to insight.

(b) mapping the various mental states and factors. Some states and factors are common to all people, but some are experienced only by arias, so we’d have to find one on whom to base the mapping, and since there are differences even among ariyas, we’d need many of them.

Of course, we’re not even touching here the fundamental issues whether some or any of the mental states and factors as defined in Buddhism can actually be measured with current technology, and whether brain = mind in the first place. This is a whole different story that we can only speculate on.

In regards of your question in the last post, I was wondering at some point what would be more useful to everyone else, and at the moment I think that contributing to getting the entire tipitaka and commentaries online as a searchable database in several languages is a bit more pressing matter than making a virtual ariya. But, of course, if you feel that you can better contribute by pursuing the virtual thing, I'd say go for it. It would still be an expression of kindness and generosity and that's what really counts.

Best wishes

[Clueless Git]

Just a thought ...

Was not the buddha's 'tool list' for those serious about finding an end to suffering limited to one robe, one bowl and, strictly, nothing else?

And totaly but summat slightly technology oriented that always makes I grin ...

Red Neck Tool Box

Contents:

1. Roll of duct tape.
2. Can of WD40 oil.

Instructions:

1. If moves, but it shouldn't, use the tape.
2. If it doesn't move, but it should, use the oil.

Errr ....

[Clueless Git]

... And also the percentage of the world's population living on less than $1 a day:

'Spot the difference' competition coming up ...

[poto]

Hi poto, I was wondering about this a few years back, here’s how I remember approaching the subject:

What’s the goal? – Insight into all conditioned dhammas being anatta, anicca and dukkha.

How does this happen? – Through thorough understanding of all dhammas (so, of mental states and factors, as well as their interaction with matter).

What would be the best aid towards that goal? -A teacher who is:
(1) an ariya that already has a direct understanding of all the dhammas,
(2) has the ability to teach what he has directly understood,
(3) has the ability to read other’s minds (e.g. he could read my mind and point out – “that was a moment of generosity that was accompanied by right view, neutral feeling, right mindfulness, etc, or that was a moment of greed that was accompanied by concentration, ignorance, pleasant feeling, etc”. The idea is that this would help me to develop direct understanding of various mental states, instead of taking them for (my)self as usual).

The challenges of replicating such an aid technologically (i.e. making a "virtual ariya"):

(a) reading the current mental state and the accompanying factors. Neural science currently (to my knowledge) has a different focus than Buddhism – it can read electrical impulses, fields and chemical reactions that are currently happening in the brain. However, such readings do not help with insight – i.e. they cannot tell me whether the present moment is accompanied by mindfulness or not, does it have right or wrong concentration, was there right view or not (so just on/off states for various mental factors, we’re not even talking about their different intensities and kinds)etc. So, the challenge is to somehow translate/align the scientific readings with Buddhist perspective on the mind (in particular, abhidhamma which has the most detailed model of the mind in the Buddhist sense) that is conducive to insight.

(b) mapping the various mental states and factors. Some states and factors are common to all people, but some are experienced only by arias, so we’d have to find one on whom to base the mapping, and since there are differences even among ariyas, we’d need many of them.

Of course, we’re not even touching here the fundamental issues whether some or any of the mental states and factors as defined in Buddhism can actually be measured with current technology, and whether brain = mind in the first place. This is a whole different story that we can only speculate on.

In regards of your question in the last post, I was wondering at some point what would be more useful to everyone else, and at the moment I think that contributing to getting the entire tipitaka and commentaries online as a searchable database in several languages is a bit more pressing matter than making a virtual ariya. But, of course, if you feel that you can better contribute by pursuing the virtual thing, I'd say go for it. It would still be an expression of kindness and generosity and that's what really counts.

Best wishes

Thank you for the insightful reply. I have had many of the same thoughts.

I agree that getting the entire Tipitaka translated and online would be an ideal place to start. However, I'm not a Pali scholar, and honestly I have enough trouble with English which is my native tongue. I have thought it possible to create an automated translator program, one that accounted for as much of the Pali grammar as is possible, but the output would probably still be pretty bad at best. Since I'm not well suited to doing translations, I can't see how I would be of much help in the matter aside from donating money to others who are doing translations.

I'm more interested in doing something that I am good it. Something that makes use of my skill set and which I can directly contribute to.

To sub-items (a) and (b). Yes, neuroscience does have a different aim than Buddhism, which is exactly why I think it would be of great benefit to develop a Buddhist effort to map these states. You are correct that these things may vary from individual to individual, but that's what calibrations are for.

Even if we assume the mind extends beyond the brain and that certain things may not be measurable, I still think it would be of benefit to develop a system to take a practitioner as far as one can go with the brain and a technological interface. I don't think we can be certain of how far we can actually go with these types of technologies until we start actively trying.

I also agree that we would need a large number of ariyas, but we do not need them all at once. If it takes 10 years, 100 years or even 1,000 years to find and scan enough, it would still be possible. Although, with hundreds of millions of Buddhists in the world today, I would hope it wouldn't take too long.

[poto]

Just a thought ...

Was not the buddha's 'tool list' for those serious about finding an end to suffering limited to one robe, one bowl and, strictly, nothing else?

Computers were not in the Buddha's original 'tool list', but there are numerous wise and kind monastics that post on forums like this. That skillful use of technology benefits many and helps spread the Dhamma.

All I am suggesting is exploring more skillful uses of technology.