Trusting in Brahma?

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cappuccino
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Re: Seems like I'm slowly drifting away from Dhamma

Post by cappuccino »

Saoshun wrote:To have a doubt you need to have something to doubt about.
Indeed you have not enough faith to understand where faith should be.

I appreciate your situation if you do not.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by tiltbillings »

A couple of different ways to look at God. There is a God, but it is not quite what it thinks it is, or that there is no God that is permanent, omniscient, and the creator of the universe:

The Buddha states (Anguttara-Nikaya X 29):

  • 'As far as the suns and moons extend their courses and the regions of the sky shine in splendour, there is a thousandfold world system. In each single one of these there are a thousand suns, moons, Meru Mountains, four times a thousand continents and oceans, a thousand heavens of all stages of the realm of sense pleasure, a thousand Brahma worlds. As far as a thousandfold world system reaches [in other words, the universe], the Great God is the highest being. But even the Great God is subject to coming-to-be and ceasing-to-be.'


And in the 83rd discourse of the Middle Length Sayings:

  • "God truthfully answers [the questions of the Buddha] in succession: 'Good sir, those views I previously held are not mine; I see the radiance the world of God as passing; how could I say that I am permanent and eternal?'"


In other words God is still bound by karma and union with God, as a goal, is still to be within the realm of karma, which is inferior to the attainment of nibbana.

In Digha Nikaya 24 where the Buddha states:

  • "There are some ascetics and brahmins who declare as their doctrine that all things began with the creation by God, or Brahma."


And this singular god is characterized so:

  • "That Worshipful God, the Great God, the Omnipotent, the Omniscient, the Organizer, the Protection, the Creator, the Most Perfect Ruler, the Designer and Orderer, the Father of All That Have Been and Shall Be, He by Whom we were created, He is permanent, Constant, Eternal, Unchanging, and He will remain so for ever and ever."


which is a nice characterization of the brahmanical notion of the creator God one finds in the early Brahmanical and Ishvara literature, and it fits rather nicely every other omniscient, omnipotent creator God notion that has come down the pike.

The Buddha goes on in this discourse, using mythic language, to give a biting satirical re-telling of the creation myth of the Brhadaranyaka Upanishad making it quite clear that God is not quite what the absolute entity it imagines itself to be. It is not the creator, and we can see in this discourse by the Buddha and in other related ones that the idea of a single, absolute cause for the multiplicity of things, an infallible source of revealed knowledge that was different in kind from ordinary human knowledge, an unconditioned being that participates in any way in (even only as a witness to) the changes of human experience, and any kind of being that can interfere with the natural consequences of karma is rejected by the Buddha.

Elsewhere the Buddha states:

Anguttara Nikaya 3.61:

  • "Again, monks, I [the Buddha] approached those ascetic and brahmins and said to them: 'Is it true, as they say, that you venerable ones teach and hold the view that whatever a person experiences...all that is caused by God's creation?' When they affirmed it, I said to them: 'If that is so, venerable sirs, then it is due to God's creation that people kill, steal ...[and otherwise act badly][/b]. But those who have recourse to God's creation as the decisive factor, will lack the impulse and the effort doing this or not doing that. Since for them, really and truly, no (motive) obtains that this or that ought to be done or not be done...."'[/b]


MajjhimaNikaya II 222:

  • "If the pleasure and pain that beings feel are caused the creative act of a Supreme God [Issara-nimmana-hetu], then the Niganthas [Jains] surely must have been created by an evil Supreme God."


MN II 68. (Discussed at length in this thread):

  • "The universe is without a refuge, without a Supreme God."


And then let us add these statement from the Pali Canon:

  • "He who eyes can see the sickening sight, why does not God set his creatures right? If his wide power no limits can restrain, why is his hand so rarely spread to bless? Why are his creatures all condemned to pain? Why does he not to all give happiness? Why do fraud, lies, and ignorance prevail? Why triumphs falsehood, - truth and justice fail? I count your God unjust in making a world in which to shelter wrong." J VI.208

  • "If God designs the life of the entire world -- the glory and the misery, the good and the evil acts, man is but an instrument of his will and God alone is responsible." J V.238.


Samyutta Nikaya III 144; CDB 954:

  • "Bhikkhus, [the Buddha said, holding a small lump of cowdung on his hand], there is not even this much of individual existence [attabhava] that is permanent, stable, eternal, not subject to change, and that will remain the same just like eternity itself. If there was this much individual existence that was permanent , stable, eternal, not subject to change, this living the of the holy for the complete destruction of suffering could not be discerned."


Atta, in Sanskrit: Atman, in this context carries a heavy metaphysical connotation, and given that the Buddha was speaking against backdrop of the Upanishads that predate the Buddha, atman is a term equivalent to brahman, the absolute, the godhead - that is, self existence being par excellence (which is personified or mythologized as Brahma).

The point is: The Buddha was not silent on the question of God and the nature of God.
Last edited by tiltbillings on Tue Aug 16, 2016 4:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Tex
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by Tex »

Image

Buddha did not teach faith in Brahma or any other god. It's not implied. It's not the hidden underlying meaning of the Dhamma. It's not in the Dhamma anywhere. The end.

Where's my cushion?
"To reach beyond fear and danger we must sharpen and widen our vision. We have to pierce through the deceptions that lull us into a comfortable complacency, to take a straight look down into the depths of our existence, without turning away uneasily or running after distractions." -- Bhikkhu Bodhi

"No man ever steps in the same river twice, for it's not the same river and he's not the same man." -- Heraclitus
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cappuccino
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by cappuccino »

Good, thank you! And I will offer a reply.

If his wide power no limits can restrain, why is his hand so rarely spread to bless?

Rarely like Bill Gates perhaps? (and have you asked him for money?)

Why are his creatures all condemned to pain? Why does he not to all give happiness?

This assumes happiness is a right rather than a privilege, and I see a privilege, rather than a right concerning happiness.

Why do fraud, lies, and ignorance prevail? Why triumphs falsehood

Ask whose fault it is dude.

I count your God unjust in making a world in which to shelter wrong.

He made a world? I don't see the fault.
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The Thinker
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by The Thinker »

God: you have been a very bad boy, you are sentenced to hell

Boy: Well you created this mind, is this how you get your kicks?
"Watch your heart, observe. Be the observer, be the knower, not the condition" Ajahn Sumedho volume5 - The Wheel Of Truth
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Mkoll
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by Mkoll »

To my knowledge, the only practice the Buddha gives with regard to devas is recollecting them in a certain way, seen in this stock passage:
AN 11.12 wrote:[6] "Furthermore, you should recollect the devas: 'There are the devas of the Four Great Kings, the devas of the Thirty-three, the devas of the Hours, the Contented Devas, the devas who delight in creation, the devas who have power over the creations of others, the devas of Brahma's retinue, the devas beyond them. Whatever conviction they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of conviction is present in me as well. Whatever virtue they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of virtue is present in me as well. Whatever learning they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of learning is present in me as well. Whatever generosity they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of generosity is present in me as well. Whatever discernment they were endowed with that — when falling away from this life — they re-arose there, the same sort of discernment is present in me as well.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the conviction, virtue, learning, generosity, and discernment found both in himself and the devas, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the [qualities of the] devas. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated.

"Of one who does this, Mahanama, it is said: 'Among those who are out of tune, the disciple of the noble ones dwells in tune; among those who are malicious, he dwells without malice; having attained the stream of Dhamma, he develops the recollection of the devas.'"
One recollects their wholesome dhammas and reflects on those one possesses as well. It is very similar to the previous 2 recollections in the sutta—reflecting on one's own virtue and generosity.

:anjali:
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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cappuccino
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by cappuccino »

The Thinker wrote:God: you have been a very bad boy, you are sentenced to hell
Boy: is this how you get your kicks?
I suppose we should abolish all prisons? Because after all, punishment is somehow wrong?
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tiltbillings
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by tiltbillings »

cappuccino wrote:. . .
Are you going to show us where the Buddha clearly said we should trust some sort of god?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cappuccino
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by cappuccino »

Since Buddha constantly speaks of heavens and gods, your question is inappropriate. In answer, you ought to trust Buddha.

Sorry, great brahma means great god, god the father.
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bodom
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by bodom »

cappuccino wrote:Since Buddha constantly speaks of heavens and gods, your question is extremely inappropriate. In answer, you ought to trust Buddha.
Nobody is denying that the Buddha taught about Gods, brahma, devas, celestial realms etc. All that we are asking from you is a sutta backing up your claim that we are to take refuge in and trust in god or Brahma.

:namaste:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
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tiltbillings
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by tiltbillings »

cappuccino wrote:Since Buddha constantly speaks of heavens and gods, your question is inappropriate. In answer, you ought to trust Buddha.

Sorry, great brahma means great god, god the father.
And to the Buddha that is a joke, not to be taken seriously, as one can see in the texts I referenced above.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mkoll
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by Mkoll »

Tex wrote:Image
I fully agree and I would like to make a suggestion.

Just as we have a great anatta debate, great nibbana debate, and great rebirth debate, I think we should have a great god debate as well where all posts and topics related to this subject that arise or are resurrected can be stashed away.

I can't imagine how confused someone from a Judeo-Christian background with strong attachment to it would be when he comes to this forum for information on Theravada Buddhism and finds various threads about God this, god that on a Theravada Buddhist forum. They should be collected into one thread in one place, e.g. the Connections to Other Paths sub-forum, and kept there.

:anjali:
Last edited by Mkoll on Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
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cappuccino
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by cappuccino »

If Buddha is saying god is true, and he definitely is, why would you not trust in god?

How can you ignore the suttas? Maybe you never read them?
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by tiltbillings »

cappuccino wrote:Since Buddha constantly speaks of heavens and gods, your question is inappropriate. In answer, you ought to trust Buddha.

Sorry, great brahma means great god, god the father.
And I am still waiting for you to show us a sutta that supports your claim.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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cappuccino
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Re: Trusting in god

Post by cappuccino »

tiltbillings wrote:And I am still waiting for you to show us a sutta that supports your claim.
I assume you reject Buddhist cosmology to be talking like this. It is very much available to browse.

Brahma means god. Great brahma, great god, god the father. Why not search? You will find.
Last edited by cappuccino on Tue Aug 16, 2016 5:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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