What has humanity actually achieved?

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samseva
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by samseva » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:15 am

clw_uk wrote:Have you read Das Kapital, The German Ideology or Anthi-Durhing?

A communist society is a classless, moneyless and stateless society. It's a society where power is spread amongst the people, where money is superfluous and where mans nature has shifted from an egotistical bent to an altruistic bent. In essence it's, as you say, "a kind of civilization where the structure is based on values rather than power, money, survival and basically greed."

Not only that but you started to discuss primitive communist systems, but then imagined this system but with the an advanced level of technology. Your analogy was identical to analogies employed by Marx and Engles in their works.

Your post would have been praised by them :smile:
"Based on values"
Truth, kindness, generosity, honesty, integrity, equality, peace, intelligence, altruism, compassion, contribution, fairness, freedom, respect, modesty, resourcefulness, harmony, humility, nature, life, patience, selflessness, non-violence and many more.
"...based on [...] rather than power, money, survival and basically greed."
Excessive obsession over power, money, competition/survival and basically greed.
"What I mostly see is the same humans as 5000-10 000 years ago, but with many technologically advanced and complicated toys."
I see the current human society as having advanced technology without much wholesome use.

I don't see how a society based on noble values can be considered as communist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection

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samseva
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by samseva » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:22 am

No_Mind wrote:Give it some time .. another few centuries. The growth of human human consciousness over past few decades has shown it is on an exponential trajectory.
I don't see everything as bleak. Simply, I don't understand how slowly we have spiritually evolved.

Some noble/wise civilizations which come to mind are (obviously) the Sangha and Native Americans.
Last edited by samseva on Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:23 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:22 am

samseva wrote:
clw_uk wrote:Have you read Das Kapital, The German Ideology or Anthi-Durhing?

A communist society is a classless, moneyless and stateless society. It's a society where power is spread amongst the people, where money is superfluous and where mans nature has shifted from an egotistical bent to an altruistic bent. In essence it's, as you say, "a kind of civilization where the structure is based on values rather than power, money, survival and basically greed."

Not only that but you started to discuss primitive communist systems, but then imagined this system but with the an advanced level of technology. Your analogy was identical to analogies employed by Marx and Engles in their works.

Your post would have been praised by them :smile:
"Based on values"
Truth, kindness, generosity, honesty, integrity, equality, peace, intelligence, altruism, compassion, contribution, fairness, freedom, respect, modesty, resourcefulness, harmony, humility, nature, life, patience, selflessness, non-violence and many more.
"...based on [...] rather than power, money, survival and basically greed."
Excessive obsession over power, money, competition/survival and basically greed.
"What I mostly see is the same humans as 5000-10 000 years ago, but with many technologically advanced and complicated toys."
I see the current human society as having advanced technology without much wholesome use.

I don't see how a society based on noble values can be considered as communist.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_projection


Hey there is nothing wrong in being a Communist ;) Everything you said in your original post was a classic communist argument and vision for the future. Read any of Marx and Engles works and you will see. By that I mean their in depth works mentioned above instead of the over-hyped Communist manifesto.

You may have approached it another way, which assuming by your post would be the historical idealist approach instead of historical materialism, however you seem to share the same vision and hope for mankind as Marx, Engles and Lenin did.


However you do seem to be adverse to this label. Why do you not wish to be called a communist? Do you see Communism as evil? If so, what do you understand Communism to be?

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samseva
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by samseva » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:28 am

clw_uk wrote:Hey there is nothing wrong in being a Communist ;) Everything you said in your original post was a classic communist argument and vision for the future. Read any of Marx and Engles works and you will see. bBy that I mean their in depth works mentioned above instead of the over-hyped Communist manifesto.

You may have approached it another way, which assuming by your post would be the historical idealist approach instead of historical materialism, however you seem to share the same vision and hope for mankind as Marx, Engles and Lenin did.
Being labeled a communist—or anything for that manner—based on a few general and simple sentences usually isn't well received.

I still object that a society based on noble values doesn't imply communist ideologies.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:35 am

Samseva -

Being labeled a communist—or anything for that manner—based on a few general and simple sentences usually isn't well received.
Your vision was the same as a Communist, you may just disagree on how to get us there. If you posts are "simple" then you need to be more clear. We can only go on what you post.

I still object that a society based on noble values doesn't imply communist ideologies.
Well a Marxist would say that those values are created through a dramatic shift in property rights, a change in the mode of production leading to a change in values. You seem to argue for ideals changing society and so you seem to take the historical idealist approach, however your ideal society is the same as a Communist's ideal society. All that is different is your understanding of how it is created etc.

As I said nothing wrong with being a Communist, be it via historical materialism (Marxism/Scientific Socialism) or historical idealism (Utopian Socialism).

:)

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Mkoll
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by Mkoll » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:44 am

What I have seen is that holding misanthropic views myself have only led to suffering for myself and others. Not saying anyone here is doing this, but it's something to watch out for.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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Ceisiwr
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by Ceisiwr » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:48 am

Mkoll wrote:What I have seen is that holding misanthropic views myself have only led to suffering for myself and others. Not saying anyone here is doing this, but it's something to watch out for.

Who on earth is engaging in people hating?

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samseva
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by samseva » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:49 am

clw_uk wrote:
Being labeled a communist—or anything for that manner—based on a few general and simple sentences usually isn't well received.
Your vision was the same as a Communist, you may just disagree on how to get us there. If you posts are "simple" then you need to be more clear. We can only go on what you post.
I still object that a society based on noble values doesn't imply communist ideologies.
Well a Marxist would say that those values are created through a dramatic shift in property rights, a change in the mode of production leading to a change in values. You seem to argue for ideals changing society and so you seem to take the historical idealist approach, however your ideal society is the same as a Communist's ideal society. All that is different is your understanding of how it is created etc.

As I said nothing wrong with being a Communist, be it via historical materialism (Marxism/Scientific Socialism) or historical idealism (Utopian Socialism).

:)
Your psychoanalytical, political, projectional generalizations—based on a few sentences—are not welcome.

Now if you could get back on topic rather than debating on politically labelling me, that would be splendid.
Last edited by samseva on Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:51 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Mkoll
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by Mkoll » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:50 am

clw_uk wrote:
Mkoll wrote:What I have seen is that holding misanthropic views myself have only led to suffering for myself and others. Not saying anyone here is doing this, but it's something to watch out for.

Who on earth is engaging in people hating?
Mkoll wrote:Not saying anyone here is doing this, but it's something to watch out for.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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samseva
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by samseva » Wed Aug 19, 2015 2:52 am

Mkoll wrote:What I have seen is that holding misanthropic views myself have only led to suffering for myself and others. Not saying anyone here is doing this, but it's something to watch out for.
I agree. Balance is important.

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m0rl0ck
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by m0rl0ck » Wed Aug 19, 2015 6:17 pm

Since humanity itself is the only judge of its meanings and accomplishments, the question seems a little tautologous.
I like to think that like the universe or a flower, the meaning cant be separated from the being :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

SarathW
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by SarathW » Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:41 pm

I think the question should ,what the humanity want to achieve?
Have we achieved what we want to achieve?
Can we achieve what we want the way we are doing (going) now?

=============================

What is the purpose of life?

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=24474" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


What do you think? Did the buddha answer this one?

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... ng+of+life" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Vanda
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by Vanda » Tue Aug 25, 2015 5:26 pm

What has humanity actually achieved?
Humans have wiped out an incalculable and diverse number of animal and plant species. Massive deforestation, large scale destruction of rain forests, the list goes on. That is really the only achievement.

Humanity is parasitic. We have been around for a relatively brief period of time and by most calculations will die off in a timely manner after depleting the natural surroundings that we depend on to survive.
Last edited by Vanda on Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya

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Sam Vara
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by Sam Vara » Tue Aug 25, 2015 7:19 pm

Vanda wrote: Humans have wiped out an incalculable and diverse number of animal and plant species. Massive deforestation, large scale destruction of rain forests, the list goes on. That is really the only achievement.
Oh, and this, of course...

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Vanda
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Re: What has humanity actually achieved?

Post by Vanda » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:06 pm

Sam Vara,

A piece of music will mean little in a few thousand years, or when humans finally become extinct, and it doesn't outweigh the extinction of countless species, nor does it compare to the richness and beauty of those species wiped out and some of their lovely voices. Yes, an individual homo sapien can create something beautiful, can even have deep compassion, but this doesn't alter or change the overall mentality and behavior of the species as a whole.


Quintessential songs of the North Woods:

“Don’t go by reports, by legends, by traditions, by scripture, by logical conjecture, by inference, by analogies, by agreement through pondering views, by probability, or by the thought, ‘This contemplative is our teacher.’ When you know for yourselves that, ‘These qualities are skillful; these qualities are blameless; these qualities are praised by the wise; these qualities, when adopted and carried out, lead to welfare and to happiness’ — then you should enter and remain in them.”
- Kalama Sutta, Anguttara Nikaya

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