Greetings
Ive just started a course in philosophy to get myself back into uni, one of the topics covered was truth. When discussing it i realised that as Buddhists we tend to talk a lot about Truth without ever actually defining what truth is
So how do you define truth? Do you take a Realist stance or an Anti-Realist Stance? Or do you go for the pragmatic approach to truth (that which works is true)? Or do you take another view?
Myself, i lean towards the pragmatist philosophy
interested to hear your thoughts
metta
What is Truth?
What is Truth?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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Re: What is Truth?
conventional truth (Sammuti Sacca)
ultimate truth (Paramattha Sacca)
Anatta is ultimate truth, when "I" talk about it, the I refers to conventional truth.
ultimate truth (Paramattha Sacca)
Anatta is ultimate truth, when "I" talk about it, the I refers to conventional truth.
Re: What is Truth?
TheDhamma wrote:conventional truth (Sammuti Sacca)
ultimate truth (Paramattha Sacca)
Anatta is ultimate truth, when "I" talk about it, the I refers to conventional truth.
But what do you mean by Truth, do you take it as a realist would via the correspondence theory of truth? Or are you taking the Anti-Realist stance, something which is impied via the conventional truth statement?
If you say that "I" is a conventional truth and anatta is ultimate truth doesnt that mean that conventional truth isnt really truth at all? (unless you do take the Anti-Realist stance)
Can anatta be said to be true because it works (and so is pragmatic view of truth)?
metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: What is Truth?
dukkhaclw_uk wrote:... as Buddhists we tend to talk a lot about Truth without ever actually defining what truth is
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
Re: What is Truth?
Jechbi wrote:dukkhaclw_uk wrote:... as Buddhists we tend to talk a lot about Truth without ever actually defining what truth is
But is dukkha realist or anti-realist? Is the statement "dukkha is truth" ultimately true or false or is it dependent on what is agreed upon? (so realist v anti-realist)
for example
"the earth is the centre of the universe"
a realist would say that it is either true or false that the earth is the centre of the universe
or
"God exist"
it is either true or false that God exist's, regardless of if we know the answer
An anti-realist would say that the truth or falsity of the statements is dependent on what is agreed upon by groups, so for example:
"God exists"
for an anti-realist this statement is true to catholics (a group that agrees upon it) but false to atheists (a group that agrees to disagree about the statement)
In moral terms
"infanticide is wrong"
Realist - It is either true or false that infanticide is wrong (even if we do not currently know)
Anti-Realist - infanticide is wrong is true to a group that agrees that it is wrong but false to a group that says it isnt wrong (spartans could be an example)
Pragmatist's take a slightly different approach - "that which works is true" so for example, according to pragmatism, the fact that a bridge functions establishes the truth of the principles behind its construction
metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: What is Truth?
So in realtion to the above
"There is dukkha"
Is this statement:
either true or false (even if we dont currently know) = Realism
True to those who agree its true but false to those who disagree = Anti-Realism?
True if it it is practical/works = Pragmatism
metta
"There is dukkha"
Is this statement:
either true or false (even if we dont currently know) = Realism
True to those who agree its true but false to those who disagree = Anti-Realism?
True if it it is practical/works = Pragmatism
metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
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- Site Admin
- Posts: 17234
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Re: What is Truth?
In terms of Western philosophy, I suppose the Buddhist conventional/ultimate truths might be called anti-realist. This is because there is no intrinsic value or meaning in things, there is anatta. But there are ultimate truths such as anicca, anatta, dukkha, so full relativism does not fit either.clw_uk wrote: If you say that "I" is a conventional truth and anatta is ultimate truth doesnt that mean that conventional truth isnt really truth at all? (unless you do take the Anti-Realist stance)
Can anatta be said to be true because it works (and so is pragmatic view of truth)?
Perhaps the Dhamma is in the middle. Or perhaps it is both realist and anti-realist?
Re: What is Truth?
In terms of Western philosophy, I suppose the Buddhist conventional/ultimate truths might be called anti-realist. This is because there is no intrinsic value or meaning in things, there is anatta. But there are ultimate truths such as anicca, anatta, dukkha, so full relativism does not fit either.
Perhaps the Dhamma is in the middle. Or perhaps it is both realist and anti-realist?
Lol its difficult isnt it. What im trying to do is compare Buddhist philosophy and Western philosophy (as well as focus on what truth is since this is important) and see where they overlap, what they can learn from each other and maybe even enhance each other. I see both as great human achievements and love both
Problem with taking anti-realism is that it does go against Kamma since truth is dependent on what is agreed upon via group consensus, thus there are no ultimates. Yet there is anti-realism in Buddhist philosohpy via the two truths doctrine, which seems to be a paradox
You could say that the two truths doctine is realist but this doesnt make sense since in realism there is only one truth not two. "The earth is flat" is either true or false not true and false at the same time
metta
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Sep 27, 2009 2:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: What is Truth?
Hi folks...
The truths of the 'raft' - ultimately to be abandoned, are noble truths, not ultimate truths. Other than this there are no truths in Buddhism, for all explanations of a dream - whilst dreaming - are part of the dream.
The dream from which Buddha Awakened contains only dream 'truths'...
Regards
k
The truths of the 'raft' - ultimately to be abandoned, are noble truths, not ultimate truths. Other than this there are no truths in Buddhism, for all explanations of a dream - whilst dreaming - are part of the dream.
The dream from which Buddha Awakened contains only dream 'truths'...
Regards
k
Just a view - nothing more...
Re: What is Truth?
kannada wrote:Hi folks...
The truths of the 'raft' - ultimately to be abandoned, are noble truths, not ultimate truths. Other than this there are no truths in Buddhism, for all explanations of a dream - whilst dreaming - are part of the dream.
The dream from which Buddha Awakened contains only dream 'truths'...
Regards
k
Do you see this as Anti-Realism then?
To me the raft is pragmatism in the sense that its true since it works and anti-realist since its to be abandoned and so not ultimate truth, yet doesnt this go against kamma which is realist since the statement "infanticide is ok" is ultimately wrong according to traditional buddhist ethical teaching. There seems to be a paradox
metta
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: What is Truth?
Hi clw,
The general dilemma is that once a postulate 'x' has been asserted then it cannot be denied.
Is 'x' real? contains no room for denial. It must be real for it has been asserted - as 'x' - and its 'reality' lies fully within its assertion.
The purest element of the Buddhist perspective is neither one of denial, or assertion.
It cannot be seen as realist for it does not assert. It cannot be seen as anti-realist because it does not deny, therefore the dilemma does not arise.
Best wishes
k
The general dilemma is that once a postulate 'x' has been asserted then it cannot be denied.
Is 'x' real? contains no room for denial. It must be real for it has been asserted - as 'x' - and its 'reality' lies fully within its assertion.
The purest element of the Buddhist perspective is neither one of denial, or assertion.
It cannot be seen as realist for it does not assert. It cannot be seen as anti-realist because it does not deny, therefore the dilemma does not arise.
Best wishes
k
Just a view - nothing more...
Re: What is Truth?
Hey
The earth is flat = X is flat but this can (and has been) denied
Assertation doesnt mean truth. I can assert that I am Apollo but this doenst mean it cant be denied
metta
The general dilemma is that once a postulate 'x' has been asserted then it cannot be denied.
Is 'x' real? contains no room for denial. It must be real for it has been asserted - as 'x' - and its 'reality' lies fully within its assertion.
The earth is flat = X is flat but this can (and has been) denied
Assertation doesnt mean truth. I can assert that I am Apollo but this doenst mean it cant be denied
Does Buddhadhamma not offer any truths at all then?The purest element of the Buddhist perspective is neither one of denial, or assertion.
Anti-realism doesnt really deny it just has a different take on what constitutes truthIt cannot be seen as realist for it does not assert. It cannot be seen as anti-realist because it does not deny, therefore the dilemma does not arise.
metta
Last edited by Ceisiwr on Sun Sep 27, 2009 3:11 am, edited 2 times in total.
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: What is Truth?
To me, isms could not be further from the truth.
Jack
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta
Path Press - Ñāṇavīra Thera Dhamma Page - Ajahn Nyanamoli's Dhamma talks
Re: What is Truth?
BlackBird wrote:To me, isms could not be further from the truth.
Jack
Like Buddhism
also is this realist or anti-realist?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
Re: What is Truth?
It may well be that the earth is flat, round or pointy however these are not the 'purest element of Buddhist perspective' which is a 'seeing-as-is'. The common sense (common to the senses) view is based on perspective and touted as 'real'.The earth is flat = X is flat
This can be affirmed or denied = Realism
As above, noble truths, not ultimate truths.Does Buddhadhamma not offer any truths at all then?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-realism" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Anti-realism doesnt really deny it just has a different take on what constitutes truth
Just a view - nothing more...