If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

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sattva
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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by sattva » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:18 am

Cittasanto wrote:Hi Sattva
I hope this would be more harmonious discourse rather than discord. But I wonder if agreement is the only way that being heard (in this case) would be seen as acceptable? I would hope not, and that all responders actually considered what was shared fully, rather than simply agreeing based on similarity to preference, bias, or preconceived notions. I remember going to a training center where I was the only male student. oh the fond memories of being sat there while the women of varying ages decided it was a good idea to start complaining about men.
I am sorry that you had to go through this. Many women have a great deal of anger towards men in general and I am sorry you had to bear the brunt of that.
When you say this I am reminded of an observation about the comic strip I made.
I would like to know what the link between an unaccompanied woman and a man being called whipped is? isn't that more of an example of a man in a possibly abusive relationship, and others making light of it as a way to avoid seeing it?
Possibly, but it can also mean that it is suppose to be "the man should wear the pants and control "his woman", instead of a relationship built on equality and respect (even when there are differences by choice in roles and contribution to the relationship).

I look at posts on the merits of the post, not the poster. Someones sex, race... make no difference, something of worth and something worthless can come from anyone, although some are more prone to one more than the other, and that can only be in certain topics. Or should some special protection be afforded to posts because of the poster?
As I said in the beginning I hope agreement is not the only form of hearing that is acceptable.
And finally an opinion (which I see here as we all share the same reality, but how we see it can be different)is something we all can have, but that doesn't mean any and every opinion is warranted, or worth protecting. Climate change deniers are generally scientifically illiterate, they have opinions should their opinion be given equal weight to that of researchers when the errors have and can be pointed out?


I don't think these are the same. If you are white, would you tell someone what it feels like to be black or what there experience of reality is? If you are straight would you tell someone who was gay what there experience is as a gay person? I don't think so. I cannot tell you what it is like to be male, to be black, to be gay, ---I can't even tell you what it is like to be most women. I can tell you what my experience has been like as a woman, as a Buddhist in a Christian America, etc. On one level, NONE of us share the same reality.

One more thing, you mentioned percentages. What percentage, etc...? Sometimes, I am aware of as a Buddhist that I am an example for all Buddhists, especially here in the west, where we are vastly outnumbered. I know it doesn't take much for people to view something I do as an example of what Buddhists are. So, I try (emphasis on try) to make wise choices and I haven't always done that. Likewise, unfortunately, some men (and women) make bad examples of the group as a whole.

Of course, this is an argument for not judging people on their gender, which is a very good and important point. Believe it or not, I have stood up for men as a group. I have commented about kind men. I have known some wonderful ones in my life, both strong and kind. I kind of love men lol and miss having one around to keep me company. I also, am fearful of men until I feel I have gotten to know them. It isn't without cause. It doesn't take a great percentage to have an affect on a person. It just takes a few instances for a person to start altering behavior and avoiding certain situations and sometimes, to even get angry about having to do that. Often they are angry, because they are also fearful. I am trying NOT to say too much here...but, I hope you will try to understand Cooran and myself.

When all is said and done, I think you have made some valid points and I respect your input, but I still want to firmly thank Cooran and tell her how much I appreciate her presence here and her posts, and tell her that I hear her reality.

with metta,
sattva

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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by sattva » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:20 am

Sokehi wrote:It is not my right or ability to describe or critise the perception of others. So I assume it is not able for man to really know what women experience.

In everyday life I try to practice "abhaya", fearlessnes - to make this a gift. In many cases this is possible. As a man for example it is possible make this as a gift too towards women. For example at nighttime walking behind a woman might be frightening to her. So often I either pass by or change the side of the street for example. :anjali:
Thank you :anjali:

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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by sattva » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:22 am

SDC wrote:
sattva wrote:Lastly, do you realize that women, on this website are a minority? You can question or debate the reason why, but that is the reality. When someone who has contributed so much to this board like Cooran has something to say. It would be nice just to listen and show support for her reality. Just saying....
And they became even more of minority after a previous discussion of this sort because both men and women cascaded into that thread and became super aggressive with one another leaving many women deeply offended. Sadly some great members were lost after that event took place. I figured a lesson was learned that topics such as these cannot just be posted with the expectation that men will just listen as opposed to trying to defend themselves. That just doesn't happen here on dhammawheel.
I hope and don't think that this will happen again. There are some very fine men and women on this forum :buddha1:

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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by SDC » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:56 am

sattva wrote:I hope and don't think that this will happen again. There are some very fine men and women on this forum :buddha1:
I hope so too, sattva. That was a very unfortunate situation.

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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by Cittasanto » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:27 am

sattva wrote: I am sorry that you had to go through this. Many women have a great deal of anger towards men in general and I am sorry you had to bear the brunt of that.
Well hatred to men is normalized to a large extent. But there is a difference between this and examples others have shared
I'll use this one from Sokehi as it is quite general.
For example at nighttime walking behind a woman might be frightening to her. So often I either pass by or change the side of the street for example.
This is a subjective, i.e. mind is the forerunner, the fear was mind-made and assumed negativity. my experience is objective, i.e. you could change it to another group such as instead of women it was men saying equally negative things about women, or white people about another ethnicity, it would be seen by another as being bigoted. not casual harassment or bullying, but blatant.
It seems that casual harassment is being fought against, i.e. what we don't necessarily see directly. In other words it is the subjective experience which relies upon assumption, bias.... But men can also have this experience of fear when they believe they are being followed, our human minds jump to the worst case scenario, it doesn't make us correct.
Possibly, but it can also mean that it is suppose to be "the man should wear the pants and control "his woman", instead of a relationship built on equality and respect (even when there are differences by choice in roles and contribution to the relationship).
It can, but just look at the situation, the comic assumes men are seen as the ones who should control, and he is still in a potentially abusive relationship, which proves men own public spaces as the claim was.
I don't think these are the same. If you are white, would you tell someone what it feels like to be black or what there experience of reality is? If you are straight would you tell someone who was gay what there experience is as a gay person? I don't think so. I cannot tell you what it is like to be male, to be black, to be gay, ---I can't even tell you what it is like to be most women. I can tell you what my experience has been like as a woman, as a Buddhist in a Christian America, etc. On one level, NONE of us share the same reality.
Hence I point out the difference between subjective and objective. If someone wants to use concrete examples that demonstrate concisely what their experience is, that is one thing. But if someone wants to use subjective opinion, and assumption as though it was true concrete and generally true that is another matter.
have a read of this for another explanation http://www.iflscience.com/brain/no-your ... ur-opinion
One more thing, you mentioned percentages. What percentage, etc...? Sometimes, I am aware of as a Buddhist that I am an example for all Buddhists, especially here in the west, where we are vastly outnumbered. I know it doesn't take much for people to view something I do as an example of what Buddhists are. So, I try (emphasis on try) to make wise choices and I haven't always done that. Likewise, unfortunately, some men (and women) make bad examples of the group as a whole.
People like making a general assumption from limited and specialised examples not necessarily relevant to a general understanding, I prefer to explain everyone is individuals and pointing out my own failings where it comes to a term I associate with, I refuse to live by others expectations.
Of course, this is an argument for not judging people on their gender, which is a very good and important point. Believe it or not, I have stood up for men as a group. I have commented about kind men. I have known some wonderful ones in my life, both strong and kind. I kind of love men lol and miss having one around to keep me company. I also, am fearful of men until I feel I have gotten to know them. It isn't without cause. It doesn't take a great percentage to have an affect on a person. It just takes a few instances for a person to start altering behavior and avoiding certain situations and sometimes, to even get angry about having to do that. Often they are angry, because they are also fearful. I am trying NOT to say too much here...but, I hope you will try to understand Cooran and myself.
It is an argument for not judging others period. we do have to take responsibility for our own ignorant and fallacious thinking, not allowing ourselves to have fixed views or be vulnerable.
I can understand not wanting to share too much, I am not saying everything I could myself for varying reasons. But if you do with to go further and discuss more openly we can do so via P.M.

I may find a previous thread and share send it to you via PM

Kind Regards
Cittasanto
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by Sokehi » Sun Aug 17, 2014 9:40 am

Cittasanto wrote:
For example at nighttime walking behind a woman might be frightening to her. So often I either pass by or change the side of the street for example.
This is a subjective, i.e. mind is the forerunner, the fear was mind-made and assumed negativity. my experience is objective, i.e. you could change it to another group such as instead of women it was men saying equally negative things about women, or white people about another ethnicity, it would be seen by another as being bigoted. not casual harassment or bullying, but blatant.
It seems that casual harassment is being fought against, i.e. what we don't necessarily see directly. In other words it is the subjective experience which relies upon assumption, bias.... But men can also have this experience of fear when they believe they are being followed, our human minds jump to the worst case scenario, it doesn't make us correct.
Your experience can and will never be objective.

The fear might be mind made but it is real, it hurts, and compassion tells me to reduce this fear as much as I can. Besides that I guess I'm not a terrifying appearance usually so there is no need for me to act the same way if male pedestrians walk in front of me.

I was sharing a tiny little bit of experience here and what I usually do when I guess I'm a source for fear arising. It is interesting that even in this little standard of mine you find something to neglect and critisise when there is nobody who is being hurt by it.
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by Kim OHara » Sun Aug 17, 2014 10:04 am

mikenz66 wrote:
TheNoBSBuddhist wrote: And I would add that such treatment of women in the UK is virtually unheard of. Sexual discrimination is now evident only to an almost imperceptible degree.
It's certainly become much less acceptable to openly discriminate so perhaps it is technically correct to say that it "now evident only to an almost imperceptible degree."

I think that the reality of what women experience is somewhat different.

:anjali:
Mike
The experience of racism can be somewhat similar in this way. Salman Rushdie has said that racism [in England, in the context of this remark] can be invisible only to white people.

:thinking:
Kim

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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by sattva » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:22 pm

Sokehi wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
For example at nighttime walking behind a woman might be frightening to her. So often I either pass by or change the side of the street for example.
This is a subjective, i.e. mind is the forerunner, the fear was mind-made and assumed negativity. my experience is objective, i.e. you could change it to another group such as instead of women it was men saying equally negative things about women, or white people about another ethnicity, it would be seen by another as being bigoted. not casual harassment or bullying, but blatant.
It seems that casual harassment is being fought against, i.e. what we don't necessarily see directly. In other words it is the subjective experience which relies upon assumption, bias.... But men can also have this experience of fear when they believe they are being followed, our human minds jump to the worst case scenario, it doesn't make us correct.
Your experience can and will never be objective.

The fear might be mind made but it is real, it hurts, and compassion tells me to reduce this fear as much as I can. Besides that I guess I'm not a terrifying appearance usually so there is no need for me to act the same way if male pedestrians walk in front of me.
You understand, where intellectual discourse and debate always somehow misses the boat. It is the heart-mind that can answer the koans of life. Thank you again, Sokehi!

Note to self: Remember why you don't do these discussions lol

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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 17, 2014 12:44 pm

Kim OHara wrote:The experience of racism can be somewhat similar in this way. Salman Rushdie has said that racism [in England, in the context of this remark] can be invisible only to white people.
:thinking:
I'm sure that's true, because such attitudes can be so deeply ingrained as to not even be noticed by the person holding them. I have some gay friends who have made equivalent comments about "subtle" homophobia.
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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by Feathers » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:17 pm

Sokehi wrote:
cooran wrote:
sattva wrote:Please forgive me before I begin for any discord this response may receive. I think Cooran (Chris) really wanted to be heard, without the need as many women have, to defend herself, to get in a long heated discussion. She wanted to be heard. This is her truth. I have had cases in the past when I was younger that this was my truth, as well. Have I gone out of my way to avoid a group of men standing somewhere, ---absolutely. Getting older is difficult as well. You become invisible. I think this is especially true of women.

Do I think that some men aren't abused, ---no. I know they are. Do I think that treating each other with kindness and consideration is the most important thing, of course. Kindness and respect is a trump card. If you treat everyone with kindness and respect, then you open the door for anyone who may need help and you don't yell sexual words at them, or go off in profanity because you don't like something that they did. I think on the whole here in the United States that many young males and females have not developed those qualities. Mass media and lack of parental input has created a hostile environment for people in general. Even as I say that, I am always amazed at the kindnesses I see in others. It is still there somewhere, inside of people, waiting to be aroused.

Lastly, do you realize that women, on this website are a minority? You can question or debate the reason why, but that is the reality. When someone who has contributed so much to this board like Cooran has something to say. It would be nice just to listen and show support for her reality. Just saying....
Well said, sattva! :group:

With metta,
Chris
Very good post indeed :anjali:
Yes.
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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by Sokehi » Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:24 pm

sattva wrote:
You understand, where intellectual discourse and debate always somehow misses the boat. It is the heart-mind that can answer the koans of life. Thank you again, Sokehi!
You are welcome, sattva :anjali:

Ten years ago my ex girlfriend had three jobs at once: paramedic, two days a week working at the front desk of a hotel, one night a week working in a discotheque serving drinks at the bar. Within one year she had five different males touching her during work without asking for permission at private parts, 6 (!) incidents of males following her home after work at the bar (two with their car slowly driving behind her, shouting at her), harrassing her - two of them violently threatening her because she didn't react positively so she had to run and hide somewhere in the city of Mannheim. 4 times within this year I was called by her to pick her up at night since she was terrified. And this is just one of my ex girlfriends, and one particullarly gross and unhappy year. Every single one had experienced several quite similar situations like this. Over the years and three different long term relationships I can recall 5 incidents where "guys" sexually harassed my ex's with me being right there next to them in public: Touching them, shouting at them and threatening me.

I cannot recall a single male friend of mine who has ever been sexually harassed by females this way. That this really needs to be discussed here, that girls and women are too often seen as easy-pickups by some deluded "alpha males" is astonishing to me. But well...
Get the wanting out of waiting

What does womanhood matter at all, when the mind is concentrated well, when knowledge flows on steadily as one sees correctly into Dhamma. One to whom it might occur, ‘I am a woman’ or ‘I am a man’ or ‘I’m anything at all’ is fit for Mara to address. – SN 5.2

If they take what's yours, tell yourself that you're making it a gift.
Otherwise there will be no end to the animosity. - Ajahn Fuang Jotiko

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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by Alex123 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:24 pm

Sokehi wrote: Ten years ago my ex girlfriend had three jobs at once: paramedic, two days a week working at the front desk of a hotel, one night a week working in a discotheque serving drinks at the bar.
I was watching news where they said that many women were sexually harrassed in the military. What my mother said was "They shouldn't be in the jobs with high testosterone males".

Obviously if you work where alcohol is involved, sometimes some jerk is going to do something bad to you - regardless whether you are male or female. Weak guys can also be victims of abuse by stronger males or emotionally by stronger females. This is samsara.

As for touching. Abuse doesn't have to be physical. Women can do the emotional abuse quite well - and that can hurt much more than a punch.

Nothing of this justifies what those jerks did, but we have to understand.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:32 pm

Alex123 wrote:Abuse doesn't have to be physical. Women can do the emotional abuse quite well - and that can hurt much more than a punch.
Well yes, but domestic violence is a major problem, and it's usually women who are the victim.
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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by Alex123 » Sun Aug 17, 2014 3:38 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:Well yes, but domestic violence is a major problem, and it's usually women who are the victim.


Domestic violence is wrong. But men and children are also sometimes victims of abuse. Also, physical pain is often much less than emotional one, and women can really play on emotions. Also, in western society men are not expected to be weak and complain. I am sure that there are MUCH more cases of abuse of men than we know, men are just not supposed to complain and such. There is a stigma attached to that.


Why isn't there outrage about domestic violence against men?

Some studies have shown that women who assaulted their male partners were more likely to avoid arrest even when the male victim contacts police
...
Martin S. Fiebert of the Department of Psychology at California State University, Long Beach, has compiled an annotated bibliography of research relating to spousal abuse by women on men. This bibliography examines 275 scholarly investigations: 214 empirical studies and 61 reviews and/or analyses that appear to demonstrate that women are as physically aggressive, or more aggressive, than men in their relationships with their spouses or male partners.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_v ... gainst_men
In UK, More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010 ... c-violence



I am against violence and harassment of both women and men.
"Life is a struggle. Life will throw curveballs at you, it will humble you, it will attempt to break you down. And just when you think things are starting to look up, life will smack you back down with ruthless indifference..."

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Re: If someone says women aren't victims of harrassment ....

Post by Dinsdale » Sun Aug 17, 2014 4:07 pm

Alex123 wrote:In UK, More than 40% of domestic violence victims are male, report reveals
http://www.theguardian.com/society/2010 ... c-violence

I am against violence and harassment of both women and men.
So am I. I used be in social work, and sometimes had to get involved with cases of child abuse.

See here for another perspective: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... risis.html
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