How long?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
shjohnk
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Re: How long?

Post by shjohnk » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:11 am

Hi Flyingox,

I am glad my perception of your intentions was wrong :smile: After reading your last post, i think you and i have a lot in common :toast: I too have benefitted enormously since starting to study Buddhism (About a year now). And I constantly fall down, and have to refocus. So good on you, and i hope we can encourage each other on this forum. One thing taht might be relevant here Is the Buddha's teachings about speculating about things - We should try to work out what will be beneficial to our practice and focus on those things, and some of the more abstract concepts we can leave alone. Metta.

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Ben
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Re: How long?

Post by Ben » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:11 am

Hi FlyingOx

The Buddha said Sabbe dhamma anatta meaning no self can be found in any phenomena. It includes Nibbana because nibbana is also a dhamma, a phenomena. He also referred to Nibbana as asankhata meaning unconditioned.
Kind regards

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Jechbi
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Re: How long?

Post by Jechbi » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:57 am

flyingOx wrote:But if I do as you say, “take the high road,” in other words do what is considered the right thing to do according to Buddhism, which would be to give up the last ditch effort of self-concern...
That's not what I meant by the high road. What I meant was for you to take care of yourself in a very compassionate way. Be kind to yourself. Everytime you focus on what someone else did to you, every time you focus on that sense of righteous indignation, you're just beating up on yourself. Don't give other people the power to spur you to do this to yourself. That's all I'm saying. You don't have to feel this way. So take a break if you have to. Give it some space.

As for your own personal questions and path, whatever that may be, you may wish to find a non-Internet friend to talk to about this. Someone you trust. Please know that regardless of whatever has transpired, you do indeed have the best wishes of many of us here on this particular board.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

flyingOx
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Re: How long?

Post by flyingOx » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:34 am

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
It is just a label that we have given our collection of parts and energies.
Yes. Yet we identify with it and cling to and try to reinforce and protect this identity. That is the ignorance on which suffering is grounded.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Yes, it is quite clear to me that my anger mode was developed for the purpose of self-protection. Before reading the words of Gautama Buddha, I spent my whole life solidifying my ego. I know…how evil of me…right? Oh well. Along with this development came quite a bit of anger, rage, and hate not to mention a lot of greed, envy, jealousy, lust, and a great deal of conceitedness too. Perhaps it was because of such a deep, vast paradigm shift that came with the sense of peace when I realized that this anger was useless in its protective role of something that didn’t even exist that I thought that my anger had been completely uprooted. However, I still find times when this programming gets triggered. I went through a long period of time where I was completely free from it. I figured that since it was over a year that I did not experience any anger that it must have been uprooted. Boy was I wrong. I think the trigger that makes it sneak up on me before I can meditationally deal with it is when it seems like people are ganging up on me or when it seems like they are trying to hide something from me that I desperately need to know. Perhaps the root of hatred will be completely eradicated sooner than later. I don’t know. Conceit is also very difficult for me to completely get rid of, because it hides in such sneaky ways.

People say that when all of the hindrances and their roots are completely done away with that one will just know and that there will be no doubt. If that is true, then unfortunately, it is not also true the other way around when one thinks that they are all gone but merely silenced. No one seems to be able to explain to me what I should do or how I should handle this besides silence, and I suppose that is one way of handling it. If one is silent about everything, then one will not have to worry about claiming something falsely, but then one also runs into the problem of not being able to deal with anything, because one has to remain silent. I just wish that there was a different way of handling it than that.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.

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retrofuturist
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Re: How long?

Post by retrofuturist » Thu Aug 13, 2009 5:43 am

Greetings FlyingOx,

Whether or not it's just because I'm enthused about it at the moment, I think it would be worth checking out Bhikkhu Nanananda's excellent "Magic Of The Mind". See the topic about him in the Theravada For The Modern World forum to a link to where it can be purchased cheaply.

The book ought to bring clarity to many of the issues and questions you raise in your post above. In the meantime, I think you'll find this of interest - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy ... arise5.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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kc2dpt
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Re: How long?

Post by kc2dpt » Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:57 pm

flyingOx wrote:So one who practices Buddhism SHOULD have self concern? Then what is all of this talk about accomplishing no self? If there is no self, then there also would not be any self-concern.
...
Perhaps Buddhism like all other religions that I have studied is self-condradictory. Again, I thought that someone who has reached Buddhahood is someone who has gone beyond the concept of having a self?
Good questions. Buddhism, like all other religions, is subtle and complex and requires time and study and practice to understand. If you are truly interesting in learning about it, there are people here willing to try to help you. :group:
So is this the only goal? If so, then like I have said previously, I think that I already have that, as far as what I would consider suffering, anyway. I have a sense of unshakable peace all the time, whether it seems like I am angry, sad, or in any other emotional state or not.
You're kidding right? It seems to me you've expressed nothing but suffering in this thread. :cry:
If this is truly the only reason for not talking about it, then why do so many people throw god aweful fits whenever someone talks about it?
I cannot speak for what other people may or may not have done, but in this thread it seems to me the only one throwing fits is you. :tantrum:
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.

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chicka-Dee
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Re: How long?

Post by chicka-Dee » Thu Aug 13, 2009 1:32 pm

genkaku wrote:Sounds to me as if "someone" would be well advised to forgive and accept and penetrate his or her own actions and not worry too much about what any revered religious society might think.

Even at the most superficial level, think it through: Let's suppose someone is a murderer. S/he was a murderer at the time of the action. From various standpoints, murder is not an activity to indulge ... and yet everyone must face the murders large and small s/he has committed. No one else can face or condone the act of murder on behalf of the murderer. It simply cannot be done, no matter how much consoling or profound or sweet talk there is. Likewise the act cannot, with accuracy, be condemned by another.

Any damnation or redemption that occurs must occur within the one who has or will commit the act. And it is within that one that the investigation must begin and continue until the matter is clearly resolved. It may take a lifetime or longer ... but I see no other sensible or realistic choice.

Just my two cents.
:namaste:
"The image is a dream. The beauty is real. Can you see the difference?" ~Richard Bach from "Illusions"

flyingOx
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Re: How long?

Post by flyingOx » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:47 pm

Peter wrote:
flyingOx wrote:So one who practices Buddhism SHOULD have self concern? Then what is all of this talk about accomplishing no self? If there is no self, then there also would not be any self-concern.
...
Perhaps Buddhism like all other religions that I have studied is self-condradictory. Again, I thought that someone who has reached Buddhahood is someone who has gone beyond the concept of having a self?
Good questions. Buddhism, like all other religions, is subtle and complex and requires time and study and practice to understand. If you are truly interesting in learning about it, there are people here willing to try to help you. :group:
So is this the only goal? If so, then like I have said previously, I think that I already have that, as far as what I would consider suffering, anyway. I have a sense of unshakable peace all the time, whether it seems like I am angry, sad, or in any other emotional state or not.
You're kidding right? It seems to me you've expressed nothing but suffering in this thread. :cry:
If this is truly the only reason for not talking about it, then why do so many people throw god aweful fits whenever someone talks about it?
I cannot speak for what other people may or may not have done, but in this thread it seems to me the only one throwing fits is you. :tantrum:
Peter,

No, I’m not kidding. I don’t take my emotional modes and patterns personally. Why would I? They are not self, correct? I allow them to be rather than battling against them so that I can examine them. Sometimes I get caught in them unaware at times and I say and do things that would appear contradictory to other times when they are not present. If other people don’t understand this about me and think that people are static, unchanging personalities, then I can understand their confusion. I have gone the way of making my emotions something to get rid of, and that only leads to silencing them which leads to incorrect assessments of my very real masked condition. I am a neural networking computer engineer, and that is just how I see things. I do not take anything that happens in my mind or brain personally. Why would I? I do allow them for research, though. Does this approach bother you? Think of me as Data on Star Trek. Someone who is usually in control of himself but has temporary fits out of the ordinary, or perhaps when I am examining the programming of my own brain, it can seem quite ordinary.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.

flyingOx
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Re: How long?

Post by flyingOx » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:51 pm

chicka-Dee wrote:
genkaku wrote:Sounds to me as if "someone" would be well advised to forgive and accept and penetrate his or her own actions and not worry too much about what any revered religious society might think.

Even at the most superficial level, think it through: Let's suppose someone is a murderer. S/he was a murderer at the time of the action. From various standpoints, murder is not an activity to indulge ... and yet everyone must face the murders large and small s/he has committed. No one else can face or condone the act of murder on behalf of the murderer. It simply cannot be done, no matter how much consoling or profound or sweet talk there is. Likewise the act cannot, with accuracy, be condemned by another.

Any damnation or redemption that occurs must occur within the one who has or will commit the act. And it is within that one that the investigation must begin and continue until the matter is clearly resolved. It may take a lifetime or longer ... but I see no other sensible or realistic choice.

Just my two cents.
:namaste:
Perhaps you two should go rent a meditation retreat together. I hear that they can be quite relaxing.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.

flyingOx
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Re: How long?

Post by flyingOx » Thu Aug 13, 2009 3:55 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings FlyingOx,

Whether or not it's just because I'm enthused about it at the moment, I think it would be worth checking out Bhikkhu Nanananda's excellent "Magic Of The Mind". See the topic about him in the Theravada For The Modern World forum to a link to where it can be purchased cheaply.

The book ought to bring clarity to many of the issues and questions you raise in your post above. In the meantime, I think you'll find this of interest - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy ... arise5.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thank you very much retrofuturist, I will be checking this material out. I have another semester coming up, so it may take a while before I can report back to you on what I might discover while reading this material, if what I discover at all interests you, that is.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.

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chicka-Dee
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Re: How long?

Post by chicka-Dee » Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:37 pm

flyingOx wrote:
chicka-Dee wrote:
genkaku wrote:Sounds to me as if "someone" would be well advised to forgive and accept and penetrate his or her own actions and not worry too much about what any revered religious society might think.

Even at the most superficial level, think it through: Let's suppose someone is a murderer. S/he was a murderer at the time of the action. From various standpoints, murder is not an activity to indulge ... and yet everyone must face the murders large and small s/he has committed. No one else can face or condone the act of murder on behalf of the murderer. It simply cannot be done, no matter how much consoling or profound or sweet talk there is. Likewise the act cannot, with accuracy, be condemned by another.

Any damnation or redemption that occurs must occur within the one who has or will commit the act. And it is within that one that the investigation must begin and continue until the matter is clearly resolved. It may take a lifetime or longer ... but I see no other sensible or realistic choice.

Just my two cents.
:namaste:
Perhaps you two should go rent a meditation retreat together. I hear that they can be quite relaxing.
I genuinely appreciate what you've had to say in this thread, flyingOx, but I also wanted to recognize the advice and insight, that I find value in, given here. I thank you both.

With Metta
"The image is a dream. The beauty is real. Can you see the difference?" ~Richard Bach from "Illusions"

flyingOx
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Re: How long?

Post by flyingOx » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:28 pm

chicka-Dee wrote:
I genuinely appreciate what you've had to say in this thread, flyingOx, but I also wanted to recognize the advice and insight, that I find value in, given here. I thank you both.

With Metta
I do not condemn nor do I self-condemn, and as far as murder being an example, it is way out of context of a social faux pas. My concern with social traditions is that they lead to dead rites and rituals that get in the way of any actual productive results through honest deliberation, because that honest deliberation may not bode well with the traditional mandates of the highly rigorous members of that particular social group. This is a matter of added hindrances caused by the too rigid of religious tradition leading to unnecessary inhibitions created by the coaxing through fear that have nothing to do with the heart of the matter but do get in the way of actually achieving anything beneficial because of the overly dogmatic, patrolling activities that always ends up occurring no matter in what particular religious group it might be manifesting whether Buddhism, or any other religion for that matter. It makes people be too timid and afraid to engage in much needed dialog, if you ask me, because of always being afraid of committing some kind of social faux pas. I am very much an anti-traditionalist, and if being that way makes me unacceptable, then let it be known so that I know on whose toes not to step.
One is encouraged to seek the truth, but be warned if you ever find it, you will be treated as blasphemous.

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chicka-Dee
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Re: How long?

Post by chicka-Dee » Thu Aug 13, 2009 7:36 pm

Your assessment sounds about right to me, flyingOx. Perhaps we could start a non-traditionalist area to post in? With some barb-wire fencing for protection, perhaps? But maybe I've already said too much.. :embarassed: I'm not sure I'm very well liked in this neighborhood...

P.S. the murder would be in the metaphorical sense, I take it ;)
"The image is a dream. The beauty is real. Can you see the difference?" ~Richard Bach from "Illusions"

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