Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

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purple planet
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Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by purple planet » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:30 am

Shouldn't lay advanced Buddhist practitioners be very successful ?

! i mean the few lay buddhist who are really advanced

cause when you practice you have less greed - you can be more focused ect ...

so they can waste less money for instance to buy stuff to make you "happy" so they should have more money -
they have less greed so they can control better their lust for tasty food so they can eat healthy
they can focus better so they can study new stuff very easily
make good use of time - not waste it on unnecessary habits that can come from stuff like aversion
ect ect ...

there are probably more than a few very good and advanced lay buddhists - who still have a job - i wonder why they dont get super successful ....

like warren buffet or bill gates - or why arnt there many top level athletes who are buddhists - cause i think that practicing the dhamma is improving you in a mundane way is it not ? than why we dont hear more of very - top-top level buddhists







(im trying to figure this to better understand dhamma - i personally might even ordain - so no need to say stuff along the lines of "what does it matter" or "we should not aspire for worldly gains" cause its me trying to understand the logic)
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by lyndon taylor » Mon Mar 10, 2014 7:57 am

How about shouldn't lay Buddhists be very humble and live simply?????
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

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Weakfocus
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by Weakfocus » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:29 am

purple planet wrote:there are probably more than a few very good and advanced lay buddhists - who still have a job - i wonder why they dont get super successful ....
Because their definition of being successful in life does not involve earning a lot of cash and acquiring socio-political influence in society.

Instead they measure their success by how much they have developed their Pāramitās over a lifetime. All the money you earn, all the status you acquire gets left behind when you die. Everything one builds eventually deteriorates and dies. The kamma gained by living a Dhammic life is all you can take with you. So 'advanced lay buddhists' choose to focus on things that matter long-term, rather than expend great amount of energy in building fragile sand-castles.

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purple planet
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by purple planet » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:39 am

Because their definition of being successful in life does not involve earning a lot of cash and acquiring socio-political influence in society.

Instead they measure their success by how much they have developed their Pāramitās over a lifetime. All the money you earn, all the status you acquire gets left behind when you die. Everything one builds eventually deteriorates and dies. The kamma gained by living a Dhammic life is all you can take with you. So 'advanced lay buddhists' choose to focus on things that matter long-term, rather than expend great amount of energy in building fragile sand-castles.

When a buddhist gets money he can donate it to others - so if a buddhist is not a monk - and already has a job i dont see why he wouldnt try to get more money along the way (but i can understand how this can not be true )


But ! i also had that thought you had - but then i thought : even if they dont try to advance and get more money : if they work at a job wouldnt there boss promote them without them trying to advance in the job ? wouldnt the boss promote them because they work better ?
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

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Ben
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by Ben » Mon Mar 10, 2014 8:57 am

Why do you equate earning more money as being 'successful'?
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: ben.dhammawheel@gmail.com..

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Weakfocus
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by Weakfocus » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:01 am

purple planet wrote: When a buddhist gets money he can donate it to others - so if a buddhist is not a monk - and already has a job i dont see why he wouldnt try to get more money along the way (but i can understand how this can not be true )
  1. The amount of money one donates has nothing to do with developing the pāramitā of Dana. Otherwise only the richest people would attain enlightenment. It is more about developing kindness in the mind, removing the taint of selfishness and greed.
  2. Dana need not be of monetary kind. People donate their time and effort as dana. Arguably this is more powerful that merely transfering a huge amount of cash to an account. My teacher Goenkaji spoke very highly of this kind of donation.

purple planet wrote:but then i thought : even if they dont try to advance and get more money : if they work at a job wouldnt there boss promote them without them trying to advance in the job ? wouldnt the boss promote them because they work better ?
Now you have jumped tracks. Who promoted Gates or Buffet to their positions? They are entrepreneurs, who did what was necessary to attain their wealth and status. And in the process not all of their actions have necessarily been wholesome.

People get promoted -or not- for all kinds of reasons. Surely one's kamma also plays a part. Presumably you have a lot of statistical data to come to conclusion that 'advanced lay buddhists' are -or are not- getting promoted at jobs over their colleagues? How many such people do you know and can name? Otherwise this is all speculative rumination.

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purple planet
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by purple planet » Mon Mar 10, 2014 9:08 am

Now you have jumped tracks. Who promoted Gates or Buffet to their positions? They are entrepreneurs, who did what was necessary to attain their wealth and status. And in the process not all of their actions have necessarily been wholesome.

People get promoted -or not- for all kinds of reasons. Surely one's kamma also plays a part. Presumably you have a lot of statistical data to come to conclusion that 'advanced lay buddhists' are -or are not- getting promoted at jobs over their colleagues? How many such people do you know and can name? Otherwise this is all speculative rumination..


ok i guess this is the answer to the question - external kamma (vipaka) has affect also





so a new question : are "advanced lay buddhists" better at there jobs and more successful (focus better - preform better - work harder) in what they do than others ?
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

binocular
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:14 am

purple planet wrote:When a buddhist gets money he can donate it to others - so if a buddhist is not a monk - and already has a job i dont see why he wouldnt try to get more money along the way (but i can understand how this can not be true )
It seems difficult to passionately devote oneself to any kind of materialistic pursuit when one has little worldly ambition and passion to begin with.
But ! i also had that thought you had - but then i thought : even if they dont try to advance and get more money : if they work at a job wouldnt there boss promote them without them trying to advance in the job ? wouldnt the boss promote them because they work better ?
Chances are that an avidly practicing Buddhist will have a characteristic deficit of worldly ambition and passion. For people who are into worldly ambition and passion (and people who try to run a successful company typically are), seeing that deficit in an employee can be off-putting, no matter how well the employee may otherwise do their job.

Also see: Buddhists are losers? http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... ilit=loser

edited for correcting a phrase
Last edited by binocular on Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.

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purple planet
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by purple planet » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:27 am

When someone has lower levels of sloth and torpor he has energy to work well - (if only to help his boss or not make his boss frustrated or to prevent him from getting fired so he can feed his family )
he has less greed and aversion so less chances he will surf the internet while at work
he has more focus and less distracted so he would work better
he will less likely get into arguments
by less aversion and understanding annicha antta and dukkha he wont feel bad if his boss will ask him to work a few extra hours
once the mind is clear from hindrances one can find solutions to problems better
ect ect

all this things should come natural to him without any desire or effort so i dont think its a matter of ambition
Last edited by purple planet on Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

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Aloka
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by Aloka » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:28 am

purple planet wrote:
so a new question : are "advanced lay buddhists" better at there jobs and more successful (focus better - preform better - work harder) in what they do than others ?
How can anyone here possibly know the answer to that ?

:?:

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purple planet
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by purple planet » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:30 am

purple planet wrote:
so a new question : are "advanced lay buddhists" better at there jobs and more successful (focus better - preform better - work harder) in what they do than others ?



How can anyone here possibly know the answer to that ?

:?:
:rofl:

its a question about the principles of it - about the logic in this being the case not about what are the statistics - or at least thats what i meant to ask ...

rephrase :

so a new question : should "advanced lay buddhists" be better at there jobs and more successful (focus better - preform better - work harder) in what they do than others - in general ?
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

binocular
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 10, 2014 10:53 am

purple planet wrote:When someone has lower levels of sloth and torpor
As far as I understood, the hindrances, of which sloth and torpor are part, refer to hindrances in regard to the Dhamma, not in general.

A person can conceivably have a lot of sloth and torpor in regard to the Dhamma, but be very energetic in regard to worldly pursuits.
he has energy to work well - (if only to help his boss or not make his boss frustrated or to prevent him from getting fired so he can feed his family )
he has less greed and aversion so less chances he will surf the internet while at work
he has more focus and less distracted so he would work better
he will less likely get into arguments
by less aversion and understanding annicha antta and dukkha he wont feel bad if his boss will ask him to work a few extra hours
once the mind is clear from hindrances one can find solutions to problems better
ect ect
This is a topic I am personally very interested in.

It seems that what you say above should be true.

I make an effort to beat the drudgery of daily life with dhammic skill. So far, to no avail. So far, skill cannot compete with passion, passion wins out easily.
all this things should come natural to him without any desire or effort so i dont think its a matter of ambition
Since the goal of Dhamma practice and the goal of efforting toward worldly gains are different, and to some extent mutually exclusive, I don't think the above holds.

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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by binocular » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:01 am

purple planet wrote:its a question about the principles of it - about the logic in this being the case not about what are the statistics - or at least thats what i meant to ask ...

rephrase :

so a new question : should "advanced lay buddhists" be better at there jobs and more successful (focus better - preform better - work harder) in what they do than others - in general ?
According to some yuppie versions of Buddhism - yes.

The question is inasmuch is yuppie Buddhism really Buddhism ...

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purple planet
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by purple planet » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:10 am

when someone lowers his hindrances - he develops powers instead which if i understand correctly are there because of the lack of hindrances - not sure but this is my current understanding

so if someone dosnt get sleepy and has energy he gained throw practice when he will work he wont start to get tired just cause its not a "noble" task

Since the goal of Dhamma practice and the goal of efforting toward worldly gains are different, and to some extent mutually exclusive, I don't think the above holds.
if someone works to feed his family wont the will and effort to earn more money be wholsome and same : he also develops good-will and also works toward money so he can help others ?
I make an effort to beat the drudgery of daily life with dhammic skill. So far, to no avail. So far, skill cannot compete with passion, passion wins out easily.
Can you explain - do you think worldly motivation (passion right?) is better to deal with daily life then dhamma skill - its very intersting you say this cause this was one of the main reasons i made this thread - to figure out the part of non-buddhist motivation methods - to help in "mundane" issues but also in practice -
Please send merit to my dog named Mika who has passed away - thanks in advance

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seeker242
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Re: Shouldn't lay Buddhists be very successful ?

Post by seeker242 » Mon Mar 10, 2014 11:55 am

purple planet wrote:
so a new question : should "advanced lay buddhists" be better at there jobs and more successful (focus better - preform better - work harder) in what they do than others - in general ?
It depends. Greed for wealth can make one work very hard to get that wealth. An "advance lay Buddhist" probably would not work as hard to get that wealth because they would see that this wealth is unsatisfying and not worth pursuing all that much to begin with.

:anjali:

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