Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

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Dan Rooney
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Dan Rooney » Tue Dec 17, 2013 12:31 am

It makes no sense to post pictures of the temple without pointing out, as Mr Man has, that the abbot of the monastery has joined forces with - and even offered to lead - what is an extreme reactionary/fascist movement. He is actively working to disenfranchise the Thai people and, if the movement is successful, there is no doubt the repercussions will be unbelievably awful; it is no accident that loving glances have been thrown at Thanom by these people. Suthep, with whom the abbot sits on stage, is under indictment for murder and rebellion (crimes of which he is undeniably guilty) and he has now started making threats against the children of the (entirely properly elected) Prime Minister. The abbot is not some holy innocent crushed under the wheels of the Red juggernaut; he is an active participant in an illegal and immoral attack on Thai democracy. In fact, if you wanted an exemplar of how religious figures ought not to behave when it comes to political matters, it would be hard to find one better.

And my apologies that I have to de-lurk to make a post like this...but there you go.

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Tue Dec 17, 2013 1:58 am

On my last posts I have tried to re-conduct the topic to use this opportunity to investigate some dhamma insights about the states of our minds when exposed to a toxic environment, but it seems that some of you do not catch it. As Buddhadasa used to say: “look well, there is only profit”.

To those of you that are calling me fascist, I wish to give you my most sincere appreciation and gratitude. You have helped me to mark a completed milestone on my Buddhist practice. I always used to be very frustrated and dissatisfied with the lack of progress on my practice, but now I see that the frustration happened because I was only watching the distant carrot, not observing what I have already achieved. You will always be much loved to me. :hug:

The reason that I have been able to realize this completed milestone, thanks to you, is because if this situation had happened 10 years ago, my reaction would have been completely different. I am Spanish, and I am old enough to know very well what a fascist is and what fascists do, from my personal experience at my youth. Therefore, I do not take the word fascist lightly. If I would have been called fascist 10 years ago, my skin would have melted exposing my naked nerves to the eye, like if you had thrown acid to it; the size of my body would have doubled like a fighting bear; my nails would had suddenly grown sharp and strong; and smoke would come out from my ears. Then I would have thrown high octane gasoline to the conversation, and I would have not stopped until the temperature of your core rise far above the critical meltdown point.

(That reminds me the story on the suttas about the angry bad-smelling monster that takes the throne of the king, and the more that the upset villagers feed him with anger, the more he grows. That story is frequently told by Ajahn Brahm.) :D

But yesterday, on the contrary, when being called fascist I started shaking like an helpless little kitty, desperately trying to find what had I done wrong to deserve being called such a nasty thing, despite I can not find anything wrong in my post. But I do not see this as a weakness; I see it like an advanced sharpened mindfulness that can keep me safe from unskillful things. This kind of skillful shame is described on the suttas as a very important tool to keep the right track on the path, and I am very happy to recognize it.

I love you :twothumbsup:


Ps:
BTW: Mr Dan Rooney, welcome to the forum. Do you happen to work for the office of Mr Robert Amsterdam? ;) (just joking, I don't want to go down into the arena) :P
Last edited by suriyopama on Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:21 am, edited 5 times in total.

Dan Rooney
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Dan Rooney » Tue Dec 17, 2013 2:20 am

I can not find anything wrong in my post


You might like to consider how important it is to contextualize reports of events. After all, it's hardly normal practice in Thailand to throw turds at temples so how and why were such strong emotions provoked? Making a post which lacks this absolutely essential information is clearly wrong.

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Tue Dec 17, 2013 3:14 am

Dan Rooney wrote:You might like to consider how important it is to contextualize reports of events. After all, it's hardly normal practice in Thailand to throw turds at temples so how and why were such strong emotions provoked? Making a post which lacks this absolutely essential information is clearly wrong.


Thank you for the comments, sir. Please, read my post again.

Try to observe your mind, not the external events. Are you trying to justify the throwing of turds and burning gasoline at the temple? I don't want to know; I am just kindly suggesting that you do your personal insight.
:namaste:

chownah
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby chownah » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:00 am

suriyopama,
I don't think that anyone here is trying to justify those acts of violence. I think that some people here are trying to understand WHY those violent acts were committed. I think that Dan Rooney is suggesting that if you had given the context more thoroughly then people would have understood at the outset WHY the acts were committed......but perhaps when you posted here originally you were not aware of the high profile activity of the head of the Wat.......I don't know.

I think the violent actions show that people who hold their political ideology too tightly can act out their delusions in violent ways.........and I think that any political ideology that is followed by a lot of people will lead some who hold it too tightly to run amok in acting out their delusions.
chownah

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robertk
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby robertk » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:11 am

Glad you delurked Dan. Your comments are apposite.

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lyndon taylor
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby lyndon taylor » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:23 am

No ones answered my question, don't the red shirts get backing from Dhammakaya??
18 years ago I made one of the most important decisions of my life and entered a local Cambodian Buddhist Temple as a temple boy and, for only 3 weeks, an actual Therevada Buddhist monk. I am not a scholar, great meditator, or authority on Buddhism, but Buddhism is something I love from the Bottom of my heart. It has taught me sobriety, morality, peace, and very importantly that my suffering is optional, and doesn't have to run my life. I hope to give back what little I can to the Buddhist community, sincerely former monk John

http://trickleupeconomictheory.blogspot.com/

dagon
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby dagon » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:16 am

lyndon taylor wrote:No ones answered my question, don't the red shirts get backing from Dhammakaya??


yes and in return they Dhammakaya get the backing from the government to force school teachers to attend dhammakaya courses .... thats just another part of the story of the suffering of the thai people - from both sides ...

What is happening in thailand is very complicated, but if you said that both sides are motivated by fear and greed then you would have a good idea as to what is happening.

metta
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Mr Man
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mr Man » Tue Dec 17, 2013 4:15 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:No ones answered my question, don't the red shirts get backing from Dhammakaya??


"Yet Thammakai monks have consistently refrained from allying themselves overtly with redshirt causes or taking part in demonstrations, though the abbot was placed on the March 2010 watch list of eleven suspect monks. However, a number of leading figures from pro-Thaksin parties are closely affiliated with the movement.pro-Thaksin parties are closely affiliated with the
movement."

Taken from "THE CHANGING POLITICS OF THAILAND’S BUDDHIST ORDER" http://www.polis.leeds.ac.uk/assets/files/Journal%20articles/CAS-Buddhism-McCargo-December-2012.pdf

dagon
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby dagon » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:10 am

Mr Man wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:No ones answered my question, don't the red shirts get backing from Dhammakaya??


"Yet Thammakai monks have consistently refrained from allying themselves overtly with redshirt causes or taking part in demonstrations, though the abbot was placed on the March 2010 watch list of eleven suspect monks. However, a number of leading figures from pro-Thaksin parties are closely affiliated with the movement.pro-Thaksin parties are closely affiliated with the
movement."

Taken from "THE CHANGING POLITICS OF THAILAND’S BUDDHIST ORDER" http://www.polis.leeds.ac.uk/assets/files/Journal%20articles/CAS-Buddhism-McCargo-December-2012.pdf


Mr Man, given that you said
"
Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda statements may be partly false and partly true" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda. In my opinion your initial post omits the whole context of what has been happening in Thailand.


i am sure that you will not mind me pointing out an issue with the paper that you linked. The publication date (let alone the research) predates the events that have taken place in Thailad in recient weeks and the involvement of the Dhammakaya. It would have been unfortunate if anyone had unintentionaly been mislead because the article is out of date.

metta
dagon

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:47 am

The abbot of Wat Onoi is fighting against an evil form of greed and corruption that is growing deep roots into this country.
:jedi:

It can be discussed whether a monk should or should not be involved in that kind of fight with external elements. Personally, I do not entirely agree with that. I believe that the duty of a monk should be to fight his internal corruptions, and once he has quenched them, then he can teach other persons how to fight their own internal corruptions following the path.

There are many other monks that are also involved in active campaigns. Social rights, political, environmental, transparency, human rights, pro same-sex marriage, peace, justice, nationalism, etc. Some of those campaigns may have positive results that helps the development towards a better world, but if I had a personal teacher that I could follow and visit frequently, I would rather prefer that he is not too actively involved with all that worldly matters, like the example that Ajahn Pasanno presented himself when I saw him last Monday at BIA.


DISCLAIMER:

Before some of you alter the normal pH of your bile and start calling me names, I have to say that I acknowledge that the political parties of the opposition are neither exempt from evil, greed and corruption. Furthermore, I am aware that when they were in power they did nothing to implement the reforms that now they want to introduce before the elections (e.g. more transparency, tighten up anti-corruption, better bills and balances policy, etc). I do not feel affinity for politicians, neither here nor in my country. Period.

If you want to develop a discussion on those issues, I would recommend that you chime in at the Thai Visa Forum. There you will find a better expertise on those matters than here. http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/forum/18-thailand-news/

The topic that I would like to bring here is a constructive discussion, without personal attacks or disqualifications, on how the monks should or should not be involved on those worldly matters, and what are the benefits or the possible distresses that may be derived from those actions.

Regarding the Thammakai controversy, I would suggest to discuss it on the thread that is already open, because that is a gargantuan and labyrinthine issue. :alien:

Metta :namaste:

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Mr Man
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby Mr Man » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:03 am

dagon wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
lyndon taylor wrote:No ones answered my question, don't the red shirts get backing from Dhammakaya??


"Yet Thammakai monks have consistently refrained from allying themselves overtly with redshirt causes or taking part in demonstrations, though the abbot was placed on the March 2010 watch list of eleven suspect monks. However, a number of leading figures from pro-Thaksin parties are closely affiliated with the movement.pro-Thaksin parties are closely affiliated with the
movement."

Taken from "THE CHANGING POLITICS OF THAILAND’S BUDDHIST ORDER" http://www.polis.leeds.ac.uk/assets/files/Journal%20articles/CAS-Buddhism-McCargo-December-2012.pdf


Mr Man, given that you said
"
Propaganda is a form of communication aimed towards influencing the attitude of the community toward some cause or position by presenting only one side of an argument. Propaganda statements may be partly false and partly true" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Propaganda. In my opinion your initial post omits the whole context of what has been happening in Thailand.


i am sure that you will not mind me pointing out an issue with the paper that you linked. The publication date (let alone the research) predates the events that have taken place in Thailad in recient weeks and the involvement of the Dhammakaya. It would have been unfortunate if anyone had unintentionaly been mislead because the article is out of date.

metta
dagon


Hi dagon
I thought the link I provided may be of interest to lyndon taylor and possibly others and would have imagined that most who were interested in the quote would go on to look at the link and would notice the date (it is fairly recent). I also thought that it created a counter balance to your own post, which may be true but is not supported and is defiantly lacking in context.

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robertk
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby robertk » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:28 am

This whitepaper gives the background preceeding the current protests.
Attachments
Thailand-White-Paper-Final.pdf
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dagon
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby dagon » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:55 am

This opinion peace provides an interesting insight into the curent situation.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion ... 19731.html

metta
dagon

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:09 am

robertk wrote:This whitepaper gives the background preceeding the current protests.


You are bringing a document written by Robert Amsterdam himself??????????????????
How dare you? :jawdrop: That´s.... :jumping: :rofl: :lol:

As I´ve said before, if you want to discuss those matters, you would get better contrasts from all the different sides of the story if you post at the Thai Visa Forum.
Last edited by suriyopama on Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

chownah
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby chownah » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:06 pm

suriyopama,
I do not understand what you are saying about Robert Amsterdam's work being presented here. Can you explain with more words and fewer emoticons?.......seriously, I don't know what you are trying to say about it.....except that it seems you do no especially like it.

By the way, I know nothing about Robert Amsterdam except that he authored the paper....or perhaps co-authored it.
chownah

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robertk
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby robertk » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:11 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Amsterdam

he is the lawyer of Thaksin
The Canadian law society have a statement on their website regarding his targeting by the Thai democrat party:




http://www.lsuc.on.ca/with.aspx?id=2147485504

The Law Society of Upper Canada is always concerned when lawyers face reprisals for exercising their duties as advocates and are targeted for exercising their freedoms and rights under the law.

Article 16 of the United Nations Basic Principles on the Role of Lawyers holds that “governments shall ensure that lawyers are able to perform all of their professional functions without intimidation, hindrance, harassment or improper interference; are able to travel and to consult with their clients freely; and shall not suffer, or be threatened with, prosecution or administrative, economic or other sanctions for any action taken in accordance with recognized professional duties, standards and ethics.”

As a result of attempting to carry out his professional obligations, lawyer Robert Amsterdam has been subjected to intimidation and interference by members of the Democrat Party in Thailand. In particular, he has had legal action threatened against him in his capacity as legal counsel to former Prime Minister of Thailand Thaksin Shinawatra. Despite the outcome of the July 2011 general election in Thailand, which resulted in Her Excellency Yingluck Shinawatra becoming Prime Minister, there are still concerns for the personal safety of Mr. Amsterdam.

As Thailand continues to strengthen its democracy, adherence to the rule of law and the protection of human rights and fundamental freedoms of its citizens, lawyers such as Mr. Amsterdam must continue to play a paramount role in that process and must be able to do so without fear of reprisals or harassment.
Letter of Intervention

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suriyopama
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby suriyopama » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:51 pm

chownah wrote:suriyopama,
I do not understand what you are saying about Robert Amsterdam's work being presented here. Can you explain with more words and fewer emoticons?.......seriously, I don't know what you are trying to say about it.....except that it seems you do no especially like it.

By the way, I know nothing about Robert Amsterdam except that he authored the paper....or perhaps co-authored it.
chownah


I am sorry for the confusion, Chownah. I was trying to express that it is hilarious, because a paper written by Robert Amsterdam, the lawyer of Thaksin Shinawatra, could not be more biased than if it were written by Thaksin himself, the man who is at the core of the controversy at the recent history of Thailand.

chownah
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby chownah » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:06 pm

suriyopama,
I see. I have read a small part of the document and it seems to make a strong case for Thaksin's point of view. I have not seen anything which I have reason to suspect is inaccurate or incorrect but I have not studied the particulars of these matters and would appreciate having your input as to just what it is in the article to which you take exception or which you find inaccurate or incorrect. I'm not asking for a thorough examination but just a few of the items you take exception to would be interesting. No need to talk about any illegal things that Thaksin did since really the article's discussions are not dependent on that and for the purposes of a discussion on this we could just assume that he is totally guilty of everything he is accused of.....but I think this does not really enter into what the paper discusses.
chownah

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gavesako
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Re: Red Shirt arsonists set fires to Wat Onoi

Postby gavesako » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:17 pm

The power struggle in Thailand is also taking place through the media, such as satellite TV channels owned by the different groups, and via social media which can influence public opinion. News agencies can be influenced as well:


Thaksin and the Foreign PR Firms

http://asiancorrespondent.com/18762/tha ... -pr-firms/

Dodgy regime? Unruly protesters? Bell Pottinger can help
From the ousted Thai PM to fracking company Cuadrilla and Asma al-Assad, the PR firm Bell Pottinger represents some of the world's most notorious clients. Tim Bell, who masterminded Margaret Thatcher's election campaigns, explains why he thinks his business is a force for good...
"My profound belief," Bell continues, "is that a small number of words, a strong visual image, can change the way people think." At Bell Pottinger, which he co-founded in 1998, "We tell stories – I don't mean lies. We work for people who want to tell their side of the story."
The government of Sri Lanka; FW de Klerk, when he ran against Nelson Mandela for president of South Africa; Thaksin Shinawatra, the ousted Thai premier, whom protesters claim still controls the country; Asma al-Assad, the wife of the president of Syria; Alexander Lukashenko, the dictator of Belarus; Rebekah Brooks after the phone-hacking scandal broke; the repressive governments of Bahrain and Egypt; the American occupying administration in Iraq; the polluting oil company Trafigura; the fracking company Cuadrilla; the athlete Oscar Pistorius after he was charged with murder; the Pinochet Foundation during its campaign against the former Chilean dictator's British detention; the much-criticised arms conglomerate BAE Systems – Bell or Bell Pottinger has represented all of them.
http://www.theguardian.com/media/2013/d ... -interview

:soap:

"The world is not made of facts, it's made of narratives and stories." (Thanissaro Bhikkhu)

:goodpost:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

ajahnchah.org - Teachings of Ajahn Chah in many languages
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