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Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 12:54 am
by Mkoll
chownah wrote:
Mkoll wrote:
chownah wrote:In physics it is said that the overall condition of existence is that there is a continual decrease in the orderedness of the stuff the universe is made of..........life seems to be a process which violates that decrease......life seems to be continually taking materials with little orderliness and imposing order.
chownah
Correct me if I'm wrong.

When more order is created somewhere, there is more disorder created elsewhere. So life doesn't violate the law of entropy. The energy of the universe is constant but its entropy is increasing.
I don't know if you are wrong......entropy is something I've not studied much........do you know of a good link that talks about life vis a vis entropy?
chownah
I'm afraid not. I'm only repeating what my chemistry teacher taught :tongue:

I did a quick search for "entropy and life" and wikipedia was the first hit. I skimmed the article and it seems that what we're talking about is "negative entropy" proposed by Schrodinger.
Later, building on this premise, in the famous 1944 book What is Life?, Nobel-laureate physicist Erwin Schrödinger theorizes that life, contrary to the general tendency dictated by the Second law of thermodynamics, decreases or maintains its entropy by feeding on negative entropy. In his note to Chapter 6 of What is Life?, however, Schrödinger remarks on his usage of the term negative entropy:

"Let me say first, that if I had been catering for them [physicists] alone I should have let the discussion turn on free energy instead. It is the more familiar notion in this context. But this highly technical term seemed linguistically too near to energy for making the average reader alive to the contrast between the two things."

This is what is argued to differentiate life from other forms of matter organization. In this direction, although life's dynamics may be argued to go against the tendency of second law, which states that the entropy of an isolated system tends to increase, it does not in any way conflict or invalidate this law, because the principle that entropy can only increase or remain constant applies only to a closed system which is adiabatically isolated, meaning no heat can enter or leave. Whenever a system can exchange either heat or matter with its environment, an entropy decrease of that system is entirely compatible with the second law. The problem of organization in living systems increasing despite the second law is known as the Schrödinger paradox.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entropy_and_life

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_entropy

:anjali:

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 5:21 pm
by Jason
Reminds me of an interesting idea about what life is from Thomas Mann's The Magic Mountain found in an exchange between Hans Castorp and Director Behrens in a discourse on physiology, which is that life is "primarily the oxidation of cell protein," i.e., that life is dying in the sense that both life and decomposition/corruption are forms of oxidation, a kind of 'burning off' (262). As valid as any other, I guess.

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Sat Dec 07, 2013 6:35 pm
by Mkoll
One way or another everything in the universe is being bombarded by destructive cosmic rays and electromagnetic radiation from space objects and stars. Naturally, stars are required for life as we know it to exist. So even as they preserve and provide the energy for life to exist they are destroying life.

Natural irony.

:anjali:

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 7:54 am
by Buckwheat
chownah wrote:In physics it is said that the overall condition of existence is that there is a continual decrease in the orderedness of the stuff the universe is made of..........life seems to be a process which violates that decrease......life seems to be continually taking materials with little orderliness and imposing order.
chownah
Life does not violate entropy because we are not closed systems. Plants generate a lot of entopy when absorbing energy from the sun to create order (photosynthesis), and it goes on up the food chain. Another way of saying that is that plants diffuse a lot of energy just to absorb a little bit.

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 10:54 am
by Dinsdale
Buckwheat wrote: Life does not violate entropy because we are not closed systems.
Does entropy actually apply to life - I' not sure?

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 2:37 pm
by chownah
Entropy extends to life to the extent that life is made up of material substance.......that is to say that the concept of entropy is applied to all physical matter whether living or not.

While it is true that a living thing is not a closed system, if we consider the universe as a closed system the question becomes whether living things can actually avoid the entropic trend toward disorder. Based on the Wikipedia article referenced above it seems that there are different opinions on this.
chownah

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Sun Dec 08, 2013 4:16 pm
by Kare
Spiny Norman wrote:
Buckwheat wrote: Life does not violate entropy because we are not closed systems.
Does entropy actually apply to life - I' not sure?
Entropy is central to life. See the first four chapters of Alex Rosenberg, The Atheist's Guide to Reality for a lucid explanation/description.

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:44 am
by SarathW
robertk wrote:
SarathW wrote:It says:
There is a certain kind of Råpa-Jãvitindriya in plant
life.
yes, as I said, it is wrong.
Hi Robert
I respect your opinion.
I spoke to the monk from my local temple and he share the same understanding as you do.
However we have to keep our mind open in this subject.
Do you think that plant has life (Jiva)?
Do you think that Venerable Narda can make such a grave mistake?
:)

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:09 am
by cooran
Hello SarathW,

Did you read this post by Ven. Dhammanando?
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.ph ... 04#p270332

With metta,
Chris

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 2:17 am
by SarathW
Hi Cooran
Thanks, I have read that as well.
:)

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:34 am
by robertk
SarathW wrote:
robertk wrote:
SarathW wrote:It says:
There is a certain kind of Råpa-Jãvitindriya in plant
life.
yes, as I said, it is wrong.
Hi Robert
I respect your opinion.
I spoke to the monk from my local temple and he share the same understanding as you do.
However we have to keep our mind open in this subject.
Do you think that plant has life (Jiva)?
Do you think that Venerable Narda can make such a grave mistake?
:)
Dear Sarath
I grew up, so to speak, studying Narada's translation, about 30 years since I first read it, and value it highly.
I never noticed that error until you pointed to it. I think what he has done is read into the sutta (that ven. Dhammanando gave), the idea that the Buddha gave plants some special single life faculty.

Fortunately Ven. Dhammanando explained for us. Certainly the Abhidhamma is clear that plants have no life faculty, they are merely rupa conditioned by tejo. What the difference between "dead" plants and "live" plants is not explained in the Abhidhamma I think.

BTW the gravest error in Naradas translation is a section where he attribute free will/choice to votthapanna citta. He doesn't seem to grasp - or ignored- the fact that in a split second literally billions of different votthapanna cittas , none the same, have arisen and passed away>which ones were free? (If you want to discuss that we can move to a different thread).

.
NARADA: Next comes the investigating
faculty (Santãraõa)19 or a momentary examination
of the object so received. After this comes that stage of
representative cognition termed the determining consciousness
(Votthapana). Discrimination is exercised at
this stage. Freewill plays its part here. Immediately after
there arises the psychologically most important stage—
Impulsion or Javana.

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:45 pm
by kirk5a
robertk wrote:BTW the gravest error in Naradas translation is a section where he attribute free will/choice to votthapanna citta. He doesn't seem to grasp - or ignored- the fact that in a split second literally billions of different votthapanna cittas , none the same, have arisen and passed away>which ones were free? (If you want to discuss that we can move to a different thread).
Robert, have you ever observed, say, just 10 of those supposed billions of votthapanna cittas which arise in that split second for yourself? "He doesn't seem to grasp" you say. Well, do you actually grasp it? You keep repeating this billions idea, I'm curious whether you personally have actually observed anything which would even point in the general direction of exhibiting the possibility of demonstrating the validity of that notion. I'd like to know, so I can get a little glimpse too of this supposed important truth. I don't see anything remotely like that going on. Maybe someone can clue me in here.

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 1:16 pm
by robertk
see this thread about the rate of rise and fall http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=19334

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 3:21 pm
by m0rl0ck
So according to the authors conjecture, everything is alive or nothing is?
Choose life :D

Re: Why life does not really exist

Posted: Mon Dec 09, 2013 4:43 pm
by Buckwheat
Spiny Norman wrote:
Buckwheat wrote: Life does not violate entropy because we are not closed systems.
Does entropy actually apply to life - I' not sure?
If you are asking about the great mystery of consciousness... I haven't the foggiest idea. If you are asking about our bodies and brains... yes.