Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

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Dinsdale
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Dinsdale » Fri Nov 22, 2013 11:37 am

Kare wrote: And to quote the famous quantum physicist Richard Feynman: "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." So I instinctively distrust someone who is not a quantum physicist, who still claims not only to understand quantum physics, but even to prove an afterlife with it.
I take your point, though QM is still a developing science with lot's of alternate theories, so it's not like the experts agree.
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Buckwheat » Fri Nov 22, 2013 4:09 pm

Spiny Norman wrote:Though quantum mechanics seems to have explored a range of possibilities about how an observer affects "reality": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousn ... ollapse.22
There are other possible solutions to the "Wigner's friend" thought experiment, which do not require consciousness to be different from other physical processes. Moreover, Wigner actually shifted to those interpretations (and away from "consciousness causes collapse") in his later years. This was partly because he was embarrassed that "consciousness causes collapse" can lead to a kind of solipsism, but also because he decided that he had been wrong to try to apply quantum physics at the scale of every day life (specifically, he rejected his initial idea of treating macroscopic objects as isolated systems—as one might microscopic objects).[28]
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Nov 23, 2013 10:19 am

Buckwheat wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:Though quantum mechanics seems to have explored a range of possibilities about how an observer affects "reality": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousn ... ollapse.22
There are other possible solutions to the "Wigner's friend" thought experiment, which do not require consciousness to be different from other physical processes. Moreover, Wigner actually shifted to those interpretations (and away from "consciousness causes collapse") in his later years. This was partly because he was embarrassed that "consciousness causes collapse" can lead to a kind of solipsism, but also because he decided that he had been wrong to try to apply quantum physics at the scale of every day life (specifically, he rejected his initial idea of treating macroscopic objects as isolated systems—as one might microscopic objects).[28]
Yes, there is the idea that it's any form of interaction with the environment that causes the collapse, consciousness is only one example.
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by chownah » Sat Nov 23, 2013 1:49 pm

Also, it is good to keep in mind is that it is a mathematical equation that collapses.....specifically the wave equation. I don't think it is necessary to think of the particle collapsing......I could be wrong but I think it is better to think that at certain times it is difficult to imagine what characteristics the particle has but at certain times like when the particle interacts with something it's characteristics or at least some of its characteristics become known......I guess......don't know for sure.......
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Nov 23, 2013 3:00 pm

chownah wrote:...I don't think it is necessary to think of the particle collapsing......
My understanding is that the particle "makes up it's mind" when it interacts with the environment. I think.... ;)
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Jason » Sat Nov 23, 2013 4:33 pm

cooran wrote:Hello all,

Very interesting article "Quantum physics proves there IS an afterlife, claims scientist":

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/ ... ntist.html

With metta,
Chris
On the one hand, I think it's an interesting perspective to take. One reason is that being open to ideas like biocentrism helps to open us up to different possibilities, keeping us from having theoretical blinders on which themselves can make us see what we want to see, or else what we're conditioned by the ruling ideology to see. On the other, these kinds of articles often exhibit a lack of understanding when it comes to stuff like quantum mechanics, and overstates (and even misstates) certain concepts to make their points, undermining their usefulness.
"Sabbe dhamma nalam abhinivesaya" (AN 7.58).

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mikenz66
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:00 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
Kare wrote: And to quote the famous quantum physicist Richard Feynman: "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." So I instinctively distrust someone who is not a quantum physicist, who still claims not only to understand quantum physics, but even to prove an afterlife with it.
I take your point, though QM is still a developing science with lot's of alternate theories, so it's not like the experts agree.
That's even more reason to be skeptical about pontification by non-practitioners...
And, be especially careful of the illogical arguments that go:
  • "The experts disagree therefore, even though I'm not an expert, this idea I came up with is just as valid as any of their theories...".
:anjali:
Mike

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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Digity » Sun Nov 24, 2013 4:19 am

Ben wrote:Dave,

Whenever anyone mentions Buddhism and quantum mechanics in the same sentence, I feel an irrepressible urge to roll my eyes into the back of their sockets.
so, I am grateful to you for sharing the chopra/coyne exchange in New Republic.
Kind regards,
Ben
Same here. Although, in the beginning when my faith and understanding in Buddhism was shaky I did turn to a lot of these ideas to arouse interest in the teachings. I liked the idea that Buddhism fit in more nicely with science than did Christianity or any other religion. Although, eventually I saw it as being a bit silly and unnecessary and eventually the teachings themselves were enough.

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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Dinsdale » Mon Nov 25, 2013 11:10 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Spiny Norman wrote:
Kare wrote: And to quote the famous quantum physicist Richard Feynman: "If you think you understand quantum mechanics, you don't understand quantum mechanics." So I instinctively distrust someone who is not a quantum physicist, who still claims not only to understand quantum physics, but even to prove an afterlife with it.
I take your point, though QM is still a developing science with lot's of alternate theories, so it's not like the experts agree.
That's even more reason to be skeptical about pontification by non-practitioners...
And, be especially careful of the illogical arguments that go:
  • "The experts disagree therefore, even though I'm not an expert, this idea I came up with is just as valid as any of their theories...".
:anjali:
Mike
You're probably right, Mike, but it is a fascinating subject to ponder.
Buddha save me from new-agers!

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Kim OHara
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by Kim OHara » Tue Nov 26, 2013 2:54 am

Spiny Norman wrote:
mikenz66 wrote: ...
That's even more reason to be skeptical about pontification by non-practitioners...
And, be especially careful of the illogical arguments that go:
  • "The experts disagree therefore, even though I'm not an expert, this idea I came up with is just as valid as any of their theories...".
:anjali:
Mike
You're probably right, Mike, but it is a fascinating subject to ponder.
There's no "probably" about that, Spiny. What you find with science is that the experts disagree about the 1% of stuff that is new and unsettled while agreeing entirely - and rarely even discussing - on the 99% that is well established, and the non-scientist comes in and casts doubt on (even denies) the whole 100%.
It's particularly common in climate science (which most adults did not learn in school because it hadn't been invented then), in QM (which no-one understands at the gut or intuitive level because we can't see or touch the facts) and in psychology (because no-one really knows what goes on in people's minds). You don't see the same sort of thing in engineering or geology.

:namaste:
Kim

Edit: punctuation :embarassed:

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tiltbillings
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Nov 26, 2013 3:49 am

  • A non-scientist making profound observations using QM as a basis, the best thing to do is:
  • Image
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

SamKR
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by SamKR » Tue Nov 26, 2013 4:42 am

Quickly glancing though a part of his book I find his ideas to be philosophical rather than scientific, let alone quantum mechanical. However, I agree with him that consciousness creates universe (matter, motion, space, time). But his view is not anything new; there have been many philosophers and traditions with similar views.

The Buddha also explains how the world dependently originates based on avijja, sankhara, vinnana, nama-rupa, salayatana...
"And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye [cakkhu] & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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tiltbillings
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Nov 26, 2013 6:37 am

SamKR wrote:Quickly glancing though a part of his book I find his ideas to be philosophical rather than scientific, let alone quantum mechanical. However, I agree with him that consciousness creates universe (matter, motion, space, time). But his view is not anything new; there have been many philosophers and traditions with similar views.

The Buddha also explains how the world dependently originates based on avijja, sankhara, vinnana, nama-rupa, salayatana...
"And what is the origination of the world? Dependent on the eye [cakkhu] & forms there arises eye-consciousness. The meeting of the three is contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. This is the origination of the world.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The world:
  • My friend, I do proclaim that in this very fathom-long body, with its feelings and mind, is the world, the world's arising, the world's ceasing and the path leading to the world's ceasing.'-- AN II 48
The world" that is being talked about in your text is the world of personal experience, the only thing that really matters in terms of Buddha-Dhamma. It is "in this very fathom-long body" that drama of the Dhamma plays out.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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mikenz66
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by mikenz66 » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:48 am

tiltbillings wrote:The world" that is being talked about in your text is the world of personal experience, the only thing that really matters in terms of Buddha-Dhamma. It is "in this very fathom-long body" that drama of the Dhamma plays out.
Yes, it's this personal/internal world that the Buddha is speaking about here. Such statements say nothing about the "reality", or otherwise, of the "external world", how it works, and so on. My impression from studying the suttas is that what one believes about the "external world" is irrelevant to Dhamma practice.

:anjali:
Mike

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tiltbillings
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Re: Quantum physics proves their IS an Afterlife

Post by tiltbillings » Tue Nov 26, 2013 9:54 am

mikenz66 wrote:My impression from studying the suttas is that what one believes about the "external world" is irrelevant to Dhamma practice.
Pretty much.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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