Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by m0rl0ck » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:57 pm

danieLion wrote:Hi m0rl0ck
but that's more to my point--"once an alcholic always an alcholic" is not supported by the current evidence nor is it compatible with Buddhist practice.

Control can be acquired. I could be mistakken, but addicts are not powerless, don't have a disease
dL
If you are an alcoholic or addict that is extremely dangerous thinking. If you have had problems controlling your drinking in the past i urge you to go to a meeting or talk to your sponsor before you take a next drink.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

Justsit
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by Justsit » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:14 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:
danieLion wrote:Hi m0rl0ck
but that's more to my point--"once an alcholic always an alcholic" is not supported by the current evidence nor is it compatible with Buddhist practice.

Control can be acquired. I could be mistakken, but addicts are not powerless, don't have a disease
dL
If you are an alcoholic or addict that is extremely dangerous thinking. If you have had problems controlling your drinking in the past i urge you to go to a meeting or talk to your sponsor before you take a next drink.
This.
29 years sobriety Aug. 24.

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by m0rl0ck » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:33 pm

Justsit wrote: This.
29 years sobriety Aug. 24.
:clap:
22 for me Oct. 2nd :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

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bodom
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by bodom » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:50 pm

m0rl0ck wrote:
Justsit wrote: This.
29 years sobriety Aug. 24.
:clap:
22 for me Oct. 2nd :)
I am so grateful for Alcoholics Anonymous and the amazing people who make up the fellowship. They and the program have helped to saved my life.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by m0rl0ck » Sun Sep 08, 2013 11:59 pm

JeffR wrote:
I don't know of anyone who has been to AA, with or without success, who has been asked to address the underlying issues which led to the addiction.

That has not been my experience, the steps and the fellowship itself address the habits of thinking and character that go with addiction.
Also i was not aware that the eightfold path and the 12 steps were in some kind of competition so that one had to necessarily "trump" the other. AA and buddhism seem to co-exist fine with me, i guess im just not thinking hard enough :)
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

Justsit
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by Justsit » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:11 am

m0rl0ck wrote:
Justsit wrote: This.
29 years sobriety Aug. 24.
:clap:
22 for me Oct. 2nd :)
Congratulations! :thumbsup:

danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:40 am

Hi m0rl0ck,
m0rl0ck wrote:Id like to refer any further questions to the dictionary for a definition of addiction and to the Big Book of AA for other questions. Good luck :)
I agree that dictionaries can be helfpul in certain situations, but it depends on the circumstances and which dictionary is used. Doesn't saying "the" dictionary imply all dictionaries (and definitions) are equal? That seems irrational to me. I might be wrong, but dictionaries are not ultimate sources of authority. And I agree that there is some useful information in the Big Book, but it is afteral just a compendium of opinions--just one narrow and dogmatic take on addiction.
Kindly,
dL

danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:54 am

Hi m0rl0ck
m0rl0ck wrote:
danieLion wrote:Hi m0rl0ck
but that's more to my point--"once an alcholic always an alcholic" is not supported by the current evidence nor is it compatible with Buddhist practice.

Control can be acquired. I could be mistakken, but addicts are not powerless, don't have a disease
dL
If you are an alcoholic or addict that is extremely dangerous thinking. If you have had problems controlling your drinking in the past i urge you to go to a meeting or talk to your sponsor before you take a next drink.
You're right that past behavior can be predictors of future problems. But how exactly is this dangerous "thinking." The research suggests that the real danger is in labelling oneself an "alcoholic" or "addict." Perhaps I'm in error, but I subscribe to the REBT notion that just because something once strongly affected our life does not mean it should indefinitely affect it. The Buddha's teachings on karma imply the correlative the disputation of this thinking error. We can learn from our past experiences but not be overly-attached to or prejudiced by them.

I agree that having others to talk to and having a "support group" can be beneficial, but why, specifically, do you think it absolutetly must be a "sponsor" in AA? Maybe I'm mistinterpreting you, but I agree with another REBT principle, which also reflect the Buddha's teachings on self-reliance, that we absolutely need something other or stronger or greater than ourself on which to rely. Maybe I misunderstand, but AA and "sponsors" seem like a mere "transference addiction" where one relies on another, a group, and its dogmas. As REBT and the Buddha,teaches, it is better to take the risks of thinking and acting less dependently.
Kindly,
dL

danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:11 am

Hi bodm, m0rl0ck and Justsit,

I agree that the experience of some people in AA is valuable and that time sober is somewhat important and can help some people at some times. But self-appointing one an expert based upon mere experience or time sober can be misleading, especially to the extent that it ignores other differing experiences and rigidifies people against research that contradicts AA principles like powerlessness, surrender, the Rock Bottom myth, the "higher power" principle, the addiction-is-a-disease myth, sponsorship/meetings and "working the steps" as a necessity/only way to do it,the once an alcoholic or addict one is always so myth, etc.... How precisely do you think mere experience and chip accumulation qualify one to speak with final authority on the topic of addiction? I might be wrong, but this seems extremely dogmatic, inflexible, and rigid--just the type of cult-like mentality and just the kind of thoughts, feelings, and behaviors inimical to recovery.
Kindly,
dL
Last edited by danieLion on Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:34 am, edited 2 times in total.

Justsit
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by Justsit » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:24 am

AA and the people in it claim no authority.
It's a program to help people get sober.
If it works for you, great. It has worked for millions.
If it doesn't, that's OK, too. Hopefully something else will.

No cult, just people helping each other get sober.

If you have a problem with it, just walk away.

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bodom
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by bodom » Mon Sep 09, 2013 1:52 am

Justsit wrote:AA and the people in it claim no authority.
It's a program to help people get sober.
If it works for you, great. It has worked for millions.
If it doesn't, that's OK, too. Hopefully something else will.

No cult, just people helping each other get sober.

If you have a problem with it, just walk away.
Thank you. I am not understanding this apparent crusade against AA.

:anjali:
The heart of the path is so simple. No need for long explanations. Give up clinging to love and hate, just rest with things as they are. That is all I do in my own practice.

Do not try to become anything. Do not make yourself into anything. Do not be a meditator. Do not become enlightened. When you sit, let it be. When you walk, let it be. Grasp at nothing. Resist nothing.

Of course, there are dozens of meditation techniques to develop samadhi and many kinds of vipassana. But it all comes back to this-just let it all be. Step over here where it is cool, out of the battle.

- Ajahn Chah

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tiltbillings
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by tiltbillings » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:38 am

Justsit wrote:AA and the people in it claim no authority.
It's a program to help people get sober.
If it works for you, great. It has worked for millions.
If it doesn't, that's OK, too. Hopefully something else will.

No cult, just people helping each other get sober.

If you have a problem with it, just walk away.
Just as one can walk away from this thread.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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JeffR
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by JeffR » Mon Sep 09, 2013 3:48 am

m0rl0ck wrote:
JeffR wrote:
I don't know of anyone who has been to AA, with or without success, who has been asked to address the underlying issues which led to the addiction.

That has not been my experience, the steps and the fellowship itself address the habits of thinking and character that go with addiction.
Also i was not aware that the eightfold path and the 12 steps were in some kind of competition so that one had to necessarily "trump" the other. AA and buddhism seem to co-exist fine with me, i guess im just not thinking hard enough :)
I never implied AA and the eightfold path were in competition. I'm aware AA works great; for 20-25% of those who seek it for assistance. What I wrote is that the eight fold path trumps AA.

It tires me the way those that have had success with AA push it as the ONLY way to deal with addiction, even though it has a 75-80% failure rate. It's at least as irritating as evangelicals pushing their religion as the ONLY way to live, breath and die.

If AA worked for you, GREAT. But it is clearly not the end all, nor for all.
Therein what are 'six (types of) disrespect'? One dwells without respect, without deference for the Teacher; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Teaching; one dwells without respect, without deference for the Order; one dwells without respect, without deference for the precepts; one dwells without respect, without deference for heedfulness; one dwells without respect, without deference for hospitality. These are six (types of) disrespect.
:Vibh 945

danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:40 am

Hi Justsit,
Justsit wrote:AA and the people in it claim no authority.
It's a program to help people get sober.
If it works for you, great. It has worked for millions.
If it doesn't, that's OK, too. Hopefully something else will.

No cult, just people helping each other get sober.

If you have a problem with it, just walk away.
I agree that AA helps some people some of the time (about 6%; see the citation at the beginning of my blog). I do not believe nor did I say AA is a cult but rather that it fosters a cult-like mentality. What exactly makes you think it has worked for millions? I could be overlooking something, but I've not encountered even one study that indicates this. Perhaps I'm missing something? Would you please provide some evidence to support this claim?
Kindly,
dl

danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion » Mon Sep 09, 2013 4:44 am

Hi bodom,
bodom wrote:I am not understanding this apparent crusade against AA.
I agree that what you are experiencing is a misunderstanding based on appearances. But this is not a "crusade." It is my observation of current evidence. Would you mind specifying what exaclty makes you think it's a "crusade"?
Kindly,
dL

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