Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

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tiltbillings
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:22 am

mirco wrote:Dear tiltbillings,
tiltbillings wrote:The brahmaviharas can have several very useful functions within one's practice, but they are not necessary.
maybe not for you. Proclaiming it generally for every being seems shortsighted to me.
Did the Buddha teach them as necessary for everyone? The Brahmavihara practice is a tool for cultivating concentration. The brahmaviharas can soften one's "heart," help make one more open, but one also needs to pay attention to what comes up during the practice and after. The practice, in its broader context, is not just about getting warm, fuzzy feeling feelings of love and compassion and such. As I said, it can be a useful practice, but I am wondering what you think is short-sighted in my stating that the brahmavihara practice is not necessary.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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mirco
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by mirco » Thu Sep 12, 2013 2:48 pm

Dear tiltbillings

tiltbillings wrote:The practice, in its broader context, is not just about getting warm, fuzzy feeling feelings of love and compassion and such.
Sure it ain't. I didn't say so.

tiltbillings wrote:The Brahmavihara practice is a tool for cultivating concentration. [...] but one also needs to pay attention to what comes up during the practice and after.
That is for any object of meditation.

tiltbillings wrote:The brahmaviharas can soften one's "heart," help make one more open,
Don't mix it up here. That is another process. Although I do not exactly know what do you mean with 'soften' and 'open', I say, an open and soft heart is to be gained independently from the object of meditation.

tiltbillings wrote:As I said, it can be a useful practice, but I am wondering what you think is short-sighted in my stating that the brahmavihara practice is not necessary.
To me it seemed you say brahmavivāras practice ain't necessary for no one, as if tere are no differences in kamma & character etc.


Image
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." - Bhikkhu Anālayo

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tiltbillings
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by tiltbillings » Thu Sep 12, 2013 3:24 pm

mirco wrote:. . . ain't . . .
The "ain't" is really cute here. In other words, you cannot provide any statement where the Buddha says it is necessary for everyone. The point is simple enough. If brahmaviharas is a practice one wants to use for whatever reason, use it. It can be, if done correctly, very efficacious; however, it is not the only way that anukampa is cultivated or arises. The Buddha, however, did not teach in the suttas that I have seen or that anyone has shown that the brahmaviharas are a necessary practice. Obviously, it is one of many practices taught by the Buddha. As Aloka suggested, you simply misread what I wrote.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by m0rl0ck » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:37 pm

Actually DL i think that the reason most treatment centers use a 12 step centric approach is just that it works. I dont think they would put their reputation on something that didnt.
You know i looked for a smart recovery meeting in this area to go check it out and there arent any near by.

The only things i have learned from this thread is that dl has an irrational dislike of AA despite evidence that it saves lives, including testamonials in the thread itself and that DL disagrees with the accepted medical definition of alcoholism.

AA probably saved my life and i know others who feel the same way.
So dl let me ask you this, if there are no smart recovery meetings nearby, and someone who needs help reads this thread and because of your opinions, decides not to go to AA and ends up dead or harmed (when they otherwise might have been helped) , how would you feel?
Last edited by m0rl0ck on Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

onaquest
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by onaquest » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:52 pm

Well, been around the rooms (12 step) since 1986, so been to a meeting or two, and picked up a couple of things that apply here:
1. The 12 steps aren't for those that need them, they are for those that want them.
2. "If you want what we have and are willing to make the effort to get it, then you are ready to take certain steps....."
both items pretty specificly imply that for 12 steps to work, one must want the result, and are willing to practice the principles. If both elements aren't in place, then a 12 step meeting might as well be an infomercial, however, with both elements, the 12 step process has helped millions recover for decades, and I personally find the practice quite easily coexistant with my Buddhist practice.

danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:29 pm

Hi m0rl0ck,
m0rl0ck wrote:Actually DL i think that the reason most treatment centers use a 12 step centric approach is just that it works. I dont think they would put their reputation on something that didnt.
The in-patient treatment program I went through leaned heavily on the 12 Step model, and the staff there frequently informed us that success rates for their program and programs around the country like it were about 3-4%. Would you charecterize that as something that "works"?

Do you have a reference to support your use of "most" here or evidence to support your claim that "it works"? The reason treatment centers that use 12 step models use them is very related to the fact that recovery is an industry, and they are part of the medical-industrial-complex. When profit is involved, reputation gets de-prioritized.
m0rl0ck wrote:You know i looked for a smart recovery meeting in this area to go check it out and there arent any near by.
All the more reason to get the word out.
*MILESTONE* 1000 SMART Recovery Meetings Worldwide
SMART Recovery Meetings In Your Area
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https://www.facebook.com/SmartRecoveryUSA
m0rl0ck wrote:The only things i have learned from this thread is that dl has an irrational dislike of AA despite evidence that it saves lives, including testamonials in the thread itself and that DL disagrees with the accepted medical definition of alcoholism.
What exactly do you find irrational about it my alleged dislike of AA?

I never said I dislike AA. Neither you nor anyone else in this thread have provided evidence that AA saves lives at astatistically significant level. There is no accepted medical defintion of alcoholism. Rather, there is a dwindling contingency in medicine whom subscribe to one inarrow, dogmatic, antiquated "defintion" of alcoholism and addiction initially generated by the public relations campaigns of Benjamin Rush, the Temperance Movement, Dwight Anderson, Elwin Morton Jellinek, Bill Wilson, Bob Smith, Dr. William Silkworth (author of the chapter in the Big Book titled "A Doctor’s Opinion") and Sally Mann (a journalist who claimed to be the first woman who achieved sobriety through AA). See the excerpt from Gary Greenburg's introduction in his book The Noble Lie: When Scientists Give the Right Answers for the Wrong Reasons I posted earlier in this thread.
m0rl0ck wrote:AA probably saved my life and i know others who feel the same way.
You're probably not giving yourself enough credit.
m0rl0ck wrote:So dl let me ask you this, if there are no smart recovery meetings nearby, and someone who needs help reads this thread and because of your opinions, decides not to go to AA and ends up dead or harmed (when they otherwise might have been helped) , how would you feel?
In order to entertain this string of hypotheticals I'd have to do what folks in AA call "future tripping." And like I explained to Tilt above, while my actions may influence people, I'm neither responsible for nor can I control their perceptions, especially when their perceptions are based in greed, hate and delusion. This is similar to the Buddhist teaching that you're only responsible for your own karma. Furthermore, there's no necesary connection between not going to AA (for whatever reason) and dying from drug and alcohol abuse. In the highly unlikely event that the highly unlikely connections between the causal links in your creative srtring of hypotheticals were to be validated somehow (despite their not being falsifiable) my emotions would be a combination of samvega, metta, karuna, mudita, upekkha and anukampa. I'd also try to emulate the Buddha's repsonse to the news about the 500 monks who committed suicide when they misunderstood his teachings on the foulness of the body.
Kindly,
dL
Last edited by danieLion on Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion » Thu Sep 12, 2013 11:39 pm

Hi m0rl0ck,
m0rl0ck wrote:How long has smart recovery been in existence?
Followup:
(1) There's no necesary connection between duration and efficacy.
(2) As pointed out earlier in this thread, CBT and REBT (the philosophies SMART Recovery leans heavily on) have been around since the 50's, and REBT's and CBT's principles were foreshadowed not only in Epictetus, Marcus Aurelius and other Stoic philosophers, but also in the teachings of the Buddha.
(3) A Chronology of SMART Recovery
Kindly,
dL

onaquest
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by onaquest » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:07 am

smacks self in forehead

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m0rl0ck
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by m0rl0ck » Fri Sep 13, 2013 12:25 am

onaquest wrote:smacks self in forehead
:D

that really needs to be added to the stock set of emoticons
“The truth knocks on the door and you say, "Go away, I'm looking for the truth," and so it goes away. Puzzling.” ― Robert M. Pirsig

onaquest
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by onaquest » Fri Sep 13, 2013 1:01 am

it has always puzzled me that things not so smart, call themselves smart, to convince others they are smart?

chownah
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by chownah » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:18 am

onaquest wrote:it has always puzzled me that things not so smart, call themselves smart, to convince others they are smart?
It seems obvious to me why they do this.....is it actually a puzzle to you?......or are you just trying to appear to be not so smart?
chownah

danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion » Fri Sep 13, 2013 4:09 am

Hi m0rl0ck and onaquest,
Resorting to name-calling, labelling, ad hominem-like insults and defamation innuendo, whether directed at a person, organization, or both, seems unhelpful to me.
Kindly,
dL

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mirco
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by mirco » Fri Sep 13, 2013 9:42 pm

Dear Daniel,
danieLion wrote:And while SMART Recovery is a legal non-profit, AA is an incorporated business, meaning that financial profit is one of their purposes. This has been the case since its inception. From this Twelve Things That Alcoholics Anonymous Doesn't Want You to Know
Your qoutes do not represent what AA stands for, but only what some private people might have done.
Every attendant gives what he likes.
Every meeting is totally self sufficient and decides on it's very own, what to do with the collected money.

:juggling:
"An important term for meditative absorption is samadhi. We often translate that as concentration, but that can suggest a certain stiffness. Perhaps unification is a better rendition, as samadhi means to bring together. Deep samadhi isn't at all stiff. It's a process of letting go of other things and coming to a unified experience." - Bhikkhu Anālayo

danieLion
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Re: Problems with "9 Essays: Buddhism & The 12 Steps"

Post by danieLion » Thu Sep 19, 2013 3:37 am

mirco wrote:Dear Daniel,
danieLion wrote:And while SMART Recovery is a legal non-profit, AA is an incorporated business, meaning that financial profit is one of their purposes. This has been the case since its inception. From this Twelve Things That Alcoholics Anonymous Doesn't Want You to Know
Your qoutes do not represent what AA stands for, but only what some private people might have done.
Every attendant gives what he likes.
Every meeting is totally self sufficient and decides on it's very own, what to do with the collected money.

:juggling:
Hi mirco,
I presume by "quotes" you mean the research citations? If so, do you mean all the citiations or the just the one you duplicated? Also, I was not referring to what AA members do, but what AAWS Inc. does.
Kindly,
dL

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