Monks in private jets pass test

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BlackBird
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:29 am

binocular wrote: Oh, and papañca rwles, as always.
I think you missed the point there, or chose not to attribute it where it was intended to be attributed.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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suriyopama
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by suriyopama » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:05 am


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BlackBird
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:11 am

suriyopama wrote:
gavesako wrote:So here we go -- Luang Pu Nenkham and money laundering investigation, he will probably ask for exile in France next:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/news/local/3 ... laundering
http://www.nationmultimedia.com/nationa ... 09598.html
He will probably be very welcome in France

http://bodhinyanarama.org/fr/2013/01/vi ... -mai-2013/

http://bodhinyanarama.org/fr/celebratio ... -mai-2013/

http://www.ledauphine.com/ardeche/2013/ ... bouddhiste
That's a bit difficult, I wonder when this monastery was established, as you see there is a Thai forest tradition monastery in New Zealand called Bodhinyanarama which was established in the 1980's to the best of my knowledge. It presents some obvious difficulties that both monasteries share the same name, and I'm curious to know which was established first.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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gavesako
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by gavesako » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:17 am

This one in France was set up early on, almost at the same time as Chithurst in England. Ajahn Bankao, the abbot, is a Lao disciple of Ajahn Chah who was a refugee at that time and came to live in France in the late 1970s. Ajahn Chah went with Ajahn Sumedho to visit him there. But he kept his distance since then and did not join activities with the other Western monks. Strange that he welcomed this jet-setting monk in his monastery, technically a branch of Wat Pah Pong. That will certainly raise some questions now.
:thinking:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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suriyopama
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by suriyopama » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:42 am

BlackBird wrote:That's a bit difficult, I wonder when this monastery was established, as you see there is a Thai forest tradition monastery in New Zealand called Bodhinyanarama which was established in the 1980's to the best of my knowledge. It presents some obvious difficulties that both monasteries share the same name, and I'm curious to know which was established first.
According to their website, it was established on 7 July 1977.

Some sources point it as an Ajahn Chah monastery
http://buddhism.hum.ku.ac.th/Buddhism/A ... monastery/
http://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php?tit ... inyanarama
http://www.bouddhisme-france.org/adhere ... foret.html

I do not see it as an affiliated Wat Pah Nanachat or Wat Nong Pah Pong branch
http://www.watpahnanachat.org/Branches.htm
http://www.watnongpahpong.org/sakhananae.php

Many years ago when I went there, they explained to me that when Ajahn Chah traveled to Europe he was going to deliver a relic to Amaravati, but some event happened that made him leave the relic at the Bodhinyanarama Monastery in France.

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gavesako
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by gavesako » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:05 am

The monastery in France is not on the list of Wat Pah Nanachat and branches because we do not really recommend it to people. But it is definitely affiliated to Wat Pah Pong.

Ajahn Bankao was on some TV news defending LP Nenkham, so after this information has emerged he should better take a distance from him:
The monk went to Europe and has remained there since video clips and pictures showed him travelling on a private jet and helicopter, wearing expensive trendy accessories, going shopping in Paris, and sleeping with a woman.

Sukhum Wongprasit, one of his followers, on Wednesday urged the CSD to take action against those editing the clips on the monk and the woman. Mr Sukhum said the video was intentionally released to damage Nen Kham's reputation.

Phra Khru Wisutthiyan, chief of Si Sa Ket monks, has given Nen Kham until the end of this month to report to him, and to undergo an internal investigation that includes his disciplines. The monk chief said Luang Pu Nen Kham will be banned from the province if he ignores the order, and his case will be transferred to Ubon Ratchathani province.

Nen Kham has instructed his secretary to tell Phra Khru Wisutthiyan that he was on a "religious mission" in Europe and is unable to confirm the exact date of his return to Thailand.
http://www.bangkokpost.com/breakingnews ... r-nen-kham
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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BlackBird
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:17 am

Sleeping with a women? Are we to assume this monk is no longer a monk?

It would seem according the news he's been laundering donations amounting to $6.4 million USD through a number of personal accounts.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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suriyopama
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by suriyopama » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:23 am

BlackBird wrote:Sleeping with a women? Are we to assume this monk is no longer a monk?
Image

Image

Nengkham and Ajahn Pankhao Nyanadharo are linked together at the recent Thai News. I don´t know exactly why, because my Thai is very limited

http://www.prachatalk.com/webboard/%E0% ... 4%E0%B8%B3

http://www.alittlebuddha.com/News%20201 ... 02013.html
Last edited by suriyopama on Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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BlackBird
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:29 am

According to this site:
http://www.business-standard.com/articl ... 726_1.html
Later, a photo of the 34-year-old high-profile monk sleeping with a person who looked like a female was circulated on the Thai net sphere.

Local media Manager online reported that the monk has eight wives and two children.

Relationship with females are strictly prohibited for monks, and lavish lifestyle is considered a violation of the monks' precepts.
Of course now we are getting into the realm of the sensational, and I would like to play devils advocate in this situation by saying that the photo does not prove it was a women, it could very well be a man.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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gavesako
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by gavesako » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:50 am

If some of you remember, more than 15 years ago there was a similar case involving the famous Ajahn Yantra. He faced similar charges and eventually fled to USA where he coninues to live and dress as a kind of Buddhist rishi.

:rolleye:
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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BlackBird
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:03 am

gavesako wrote:If some of you remember, more than 15 years ago there was a similar case involving the famous Ajahn Yantra. He faced similar charges and eventually fled to USA where he coninues to live and dress as a kind of Buddhist rishi.

:rolleye:
Apparently he refused to disrobe (not that he had a choice in the matter but nevertheless) - Thailand attempted to extradite him back to Thailand from the States on criminal charges of impersonating a monk, but they were refused it would seem. I wonder if he still wears the robes?

:rolleye: indeed.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

binocular
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by binocular » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:26 pm

I think that one of the core problems around these jet-set monks (or the radical Buddhists in Burma etc.) actually has to do with the doubts that the critics themselves have about the Dhamma - but which they refuse to face and deal with, so they take out their frustration on those they perceive as "underperforming Buddhists."
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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BlackBird
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:17 pm

binocular wrote:I think that one of the core problems around these jet-set monks (or the radical Buddhists in Burma etc.) actually has to do with the doubts that the critics themselves have about the Dhamma - but which they refuse to face and deal with, so they take out their frustration on those they perceive as "underperforming Buddhists."
That's an interesting concept. Can you provide an example of such things occuring? I cannot think of one. But my mind is far from perfect.
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

binocular
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by binocular » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:40 pm

When seeing monks in private jets, thoughts such as these might occur to a person:


"When I see monks in private jets, I get doubts about the Dhamma. I get doubts about whether renunciation of any kind is valid or worth it."
"When I see monks in private jets, I lose all interest to meditate or to do any Buddhist practice."
"When I see monks in private jets, I feel I am in a catch 22, because I know that on the one hand, I am supposed to trust the monastics and cannot make progress without trusting them, but on the other hand, it feels repugnant to trust jet set monks - and what they officially represent, namely Buddhism."
"When I see monks in private jets, I think that if this is Buddhism, then I don't want to have anything to do with it. But if I give up Buddhism, then what am I going to do about my suffering?"
Etc.

However, these concerns may be so painful or overwhelming that the person who has them will fall into denial, and instead just lash out at the jet set monks or other Buddhists they deem offensive. Because, after all, if all the monks (and all the other Buddhists) would behave properly, then one wouldn't be aware of one's doubts about the Dhamma and could - seemingly - carry on as a happy camper.


That said, I'd like to see what would happen if those who are critical of those jet set monks would go and visit them and personally tell them what they think about the whole matter, how they find that seeing monks living in such luxury or sin affects their outlook on the Dhamma and their practice thereof.


Edited for spelling.
Last edited by binocular on Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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BlackBird
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Re: Monks in private jets pass test

Post by BlackBird » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:01 pm

binocular wrote:When seeing monks in private jets, thoughts such as these might occur to a person:


"When I see monks in private jets, I get doubts about the Dhamma. I get doubts about whether renunciation of any kind is valid or worth it."
"When I see monks in private jets, I lose all interest to meditate or to do any Buddhist practice."
"When I see monks in private jets, I feel I am in a catch 22, because I know that on the one hand, I am supposed to trust the monastics and cannot make progress without trusting them, but on the other hand, it feels repugnant to trust jet set monks - and what they officially represent, namely Buddhism."
"When I see monks in private jets, I think that if this is Buddhism, then I don't want to have anything to do with it. But if I give up Buddhism, then what am I going to do about my suffering?"
Etc.

However, these concerns may be so painful or overwhelming that the person who has them will fall into denial, and instead just lash out at the jet set monks or other Buddhists they deem offensive. Because, after all, if all the monks (and all the other Buddhists) would behave properly, then one wouldn't be aware of one's doubts about the Dhamma and could - seemingly - carry on as a happy camper.


That sad, I'd like to see what would happen if those who are critical of those jet set monks would go and visit them and personally tell them what they think about the whole matter, how they find that seeing monks living in such luxury or sin affects their outlook on the Dhamma and their practice thereof.
While I think you've made a decent case, and I'm sorry because I feel like I'm nitpicking: I was hoping for an actual example, given the fact you stated categorically that one of the core problems is something existent, and yet you gave no such existent examples of such things happening - Just hypotheticals. That'd be perfectly fine if your previous post hadn't been so definite in saying:
I think that one of the core problems around these jet-set monks (or the radical Buddhists in Burma etc.) actually has to do with the doubts that the critics themselves have about the Dhamma - but which they refuse to face and deal with, so they take out their frustration on those they perceive as "underperforming Buddhists."
I think a better phrasing might have been 'one of the core problems people might face
Or 'actually has to do with the doubts that the critics themselves might have about the Dhamma.

Again I'm sorry, because I get the sense that I'm acting like a bit of a prick here calling you out (especially after our tango in the other thread), but I have taken exception to the way you tend to speak quite categorically of your thoughts as if they are solid truths when they are by no means a definite thing, but are 'potentials' and hypotheticals as opposed to concrete things that are occuring.

I take solace in the fact that this niggle I seem to have with your posting style is not personal by any stretch, and I can say honestly that I have nothing against you and there is nothing but friendliness on my end right now.

As to the actual meat of what you had to say there, I don't find anything much to disagree with, it certainly is troubling that some people might experience doubts as a result of seeing corruption within the Sangha, or that they might feel disillusioned. And I think you are right that in such a case where a person might accost said monk they would in fact be much better off dealing with their own doubts, even if it was the incident that brought them to a head. I know I certainly have had such experiences of doubt in the wake of seeing unbecoming behaviour from bhikkhus when I went to Sri Lanka and it's never fun. But one must come back to the fact that Dhamma practice is a personal undertaking, for one's own wellbeing primarily, and as such you have everything you should need at your disposal already. That and a quick reminder of the fact that there are still a lot of good practitioners in this world who legitimately are striving is all I have ever needed to settle my doubts about the veracity of this Dhamma.

metta
Jack
"For a disciple who has conviction in the Teacher's message & lives to penetrate it, what accords with the Dhamma is this:
'The Blessed One is the Teacher, I am a disciple. He is the one who knows, not I." - MN. 70 Kitagiri Sutta

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