"She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.
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Modus.Ponens
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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:58 am

Billymac29 wrote:
The thing I was refering to was when Mawkish said "Just thought it was worth saying" and other members denied it was worth saying what he said.
Folks... First of all it's factual data in the US ----> There are more men rapist than women by a landslide...period. Look it up if you don't believe me.. In my state of New Jersey the crime data shows over 90% of rapes were committed by males.


To suggest that one should be cautious of the 'nature of man' is plainly, simply, wrong.
No Mawkish1983 this is incorrect.. Read up on your english. "nature of man" is perfectly acceptable in the way it was used by annapurna.


may all be well
I thought it was more than 90 %.

Maybe Annapurna should clarify if she meant "nature of men" or "nature of Man". From context it seems like it's the first one and that is more discrimination.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by LonesomeYogurt » Sun Jan 06, 2013 3:10 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:It's time to realise that men have the right not to be discriminated too.
And it's time for a lot of men to realize that women have the right not to be raped. Until that happens, I'm not going to be too grumpy if "good guys" get a little unneeded flack due to the last 200,000 years of male oppression over women.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by Modus.Ponens » Sun Jan 06, 2013 4:23 am

Alright. If even men, who are sensible members in this forum, don't mind discrimination, I'm not going to say anything more (unless, of course, if I'm personaly atacked). :shrug:
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by LonesomeYogurt » Sun Jan 06, 2013 7:32 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:Alright. If even men, who are sensible members in this forum, don't mind discrimination, I'm not going to say anything more (unless, of course, if I'm personaly atacked). :shrug:
I hope you don't think that I am endorsing discrimination; I just think that we, as men, need to keep a sense of perspective, understanding why women are often quick to judge us.

I know what it's like to be hated for being a man, and although I understand why a lot of women feel that way, you're right that it's still a painful thing. We just need to remember that the accusations of angry, hurt women are not nearly as shameful or gross as the behaviors that led to their feeling such a way.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

Stuff I write about things.

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Annapurna
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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by Annapurna » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:05 am

Ok, guys,

I feel unfairly attacked
.


A true Buddhist will feel compassion with me and will want to keep suffering from me and, so I hope I have everybody's attention for this:

The irony of this debate is, that I get attacked for something I didn't even say.

I am getting attacked with something that was taken out of context and thus distorted.

Violence against others can have many faces.

Sometimes it's rape, and sometimes, it's distorting of what others said.

It's always violence, however subtle, but don't blame me.


We are practising Buddhists and I am appealing to all of you now, to give me the courtesy of right speech, and the good will to acknowledge what I really said, before a sentence was singled out and used to give this thread another focus, away from a rape victim that we are mourning, towards a question that should be agreed upon in any discussion amongst intelligently debating Buddhists:

We don't generalize and so we don't see all men as rapists. That is agreed upon as a minimum level of discussion, as a self understood reality.

We all know it, -so let's calm down and get over this now and proceed on a higher level, I honestly wouldn't even react if some guy said that some women killed their newborn infants, -what's this got to do with me? I won't put on shoes that don't fit.

And to insinuate that any of our members, me in this case, is on such a low level of thinking as to generalize is not kind, it is offensive, I hope you understand I do not accept this gift in form of an insult, it stays with you.

Here is my original post and please give me the kindness and good will to see what I really wrote in context:
Seriously, I too am afraid.

Know the nature of the beast....that's all I say.

If you know, that some men are willing and able to rape, and that they don't only live in big cities, then you better know the deal.

After the horse ran away it's too late to lock the stable, caution is the mother of the procellain box.

You don't want an elefant trampling around in your temple, would you?

So make sure he can't get in.

I escaped 2 attempted rapes, each time I was in mortal fear, each time I was saved by incredibly fortunate circumstances, but the unspeakable shock I went though has marked me.

I've become even more cautious since.

The Buddha said: "What do you expect?"

Expect the nature of man and better be cautious.

What is wrong with it when parents teach their daughters caution of a man's strength and sexdrive?

Nothing.

What is wrong with being stronger and having a sex drive?

Nothing.

There would be something wrong with denying certain unpleasant facets of reality, however, and there would be something wrong with taking things personally that are generally spoken.

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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by manas » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:37 am

Anna, I do not think that any men here meant to make you feel under attack in any way. But maybe, in light of this topic being originally a tribute page for a courageous woman now deceased, that if we wish to continue any more contentious discussion - with, I hope, the aim of mutual understanding between all - that maybe a separate topic should be set up to deal with that, just a suggestion that I thought might be less stressful for you, or not... ?

However you decide, may you be well
:anjali:

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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by Annapurna » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:37 am

Mr Man wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:. Mawkish defending that not all men are rapists was met with intransigence.
But to keep things accurate no one has said "all men are rapists" so where is the intransigence?
Thank you, Mr Man.

Yes, no one has said all men are rapists, so if I said I did, it would be a lie.

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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by Mr Man » Sun Jan 06, 2013 10:51 am

Annapurna wrote:Ok, guys,

I feel unfairly attacked
.
I feel for you. I have had the same experience here.
Violence against others can have many faces.

Sometimes it's rape, and sometimes, it's distorting of what others said.

It's always violence, however subtle, but don't blame me.
Yes i agree and often the victim is left isolated or perceives it to be that way.

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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by Annapurna » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:09 am

manas wrote:Anna, I do not think that any men here meant to make you feel under attack in any way. But maybe, in light of this topic being originally a tribute page for a courageous woman now deceased, that if we wish to continue any more contentious discussion - with, I hope, the aim of mutual understanding between all - that maybe a separate topic should be set up to deal with that, just a suggestion that I thought might be less stressful for you, or not... ?

However you decide, may you be well
:anjali:

Dear Manas,

thank you. ♥

Sorry, I've been crying and a little upset...

Yes, this topic was started as a tribute page.

I have started this topic.

I posted a big, huge heart of candles that took me almost forever to shape... :smile: but I wanted to devote it to her.

I can understand her so well, because it could have happened to me too.

It could happen basically, to all of us, especially the women and children.

As to your suggestion, of a new topic, I am not sure about what, but I certainly do not wish to "continue a contentious discussion", I am hurt that it developped in this way here and I am asking some members to be a bit more sensitive and read what I really said.

Many replies here were truly beautiful and heartwarming and yes. Very, very Nice. Thank you all. :heart:

Anna

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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by Annapurna » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:26 am

SamKR wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Within Man there are undoubtedly strong passions. Wouldn't it be wise for all of us to remain cautious?
Yes. Men and Women all should remain cautious of others (especially Men). Why? Because my impression is that Men are more impulsive than women; I guess that has something to do with biology.
Cautious but with Metta, of course.
Yes, biology... There is this immense muscle strength in men, with which they can lift up a woman from the ground and can carry her, just like women can pick up a child and carry it.

There is this biological difference in the amount of strength and how it's used... :anjali:

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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by Annapurna » Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:43 am

daverupa wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
Modus.Ponens wrote:. Mawkish defending that not all men are rapists was met with intransigence.
But to keep things accurate no one has said "all men are rapists" so where is the intransigence?
All men are potential rapists, probably, is the idea of note.

It may be arguable, but it's selected for via operant conditioning to be the safest way to walk through a city. Sexual dimorphism suggests that forced sex probably has a long pedigree in human history.

The Gift of Fear, by Gavin de Becker, is recommended reading.

Thank you, Daverupa. Yes...absolutely, POTENTIAL rapists, not because they all have it in them, but you never know who you meet, he could be anything, potentially.

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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by Annapurna » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:05 pm

Billymac29 wrote:
The thing I was refering to was when Mawkish said "Just thought it was worth saying" and other members denied it was worth saying what he said.
Folks... First of all it's factual data in the US ----> There are more men rapist than women by a landslide...period. Look it up if you don't believe me.. In my state of New Jersey the crime data shows over 90% of rapes were committed by males.


To suggest that one should be cautious of the 'nature of man' is plainly, simply, wrong.
No Mawkish1983 this is incorrect.. Read up on your english. "nature of man" is perfectly acceptable in the way it was used by annapurna.


may all be well
Thank you.

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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by Annapurna » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:19 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Maybe Annapurna should clarify if she meant "nature of men" or "nature of Man". From context it seems like it's the first one and that is more discrimination.
I already have, on page 2 and 3. Shows you didn't even read my posts, but pass judgements.

This is not ok.

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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by Kusala » Sun Jan 06, 2013 12:25 pm

Thought I'd post an update http://news.yahoo.com/indian-rape-victi ... 00102.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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Re: "She wanted to LIVE" R.I.P. "Braveheart"

Post by Sambojjhanga » Sun Jan 06, 2013 1:44 pm

I would like to say just two things.

First, I am VERY sorry and saddened for the death of the young woman in question and the horror she went through. This thread should be closed on that note.

Secondly, the underlying discussion on the unequal power of men and women and the resultant issues SHOULD be talked about...but not in this thread.

I offer metta to all in this thread and suggest that any discussion outside this poor woman in question be held for another thread.

Metta

:anjali:
Sabba rasam dhammaraso jinati
The flavor of the dhamma exceeds all other flavors

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