http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MZGgglZX ... re=related
This series is from a Christain theologin, however, his presentation of premodernism, modernism, and especially postmodernism, structured around the central postmodern doctrine of relativism is an excellent presentation of the subject and really relates the secular attitudes that have influenced all religious beliefs and practice in the past, and today -- not just the Christianity that he focuses on. So while he presents it with a Christian outlook the talk is mainly on postmodernism and is an excellent presentation of it overall.
Kevin
A Talk on Postmodernism
A Talk on Postmodernism
Last edited by Virgo on Sun Mar 11, 2012 4:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
- tiltbillings
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Re: A Talk on Posermodernism
Relativism must bad, given that quote by Mussolini you now have as your signature.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: A Talk on Posermodernism
tiltbillings wrote:Relativism must bad, given that quote by Mussolini you now have as your signature.
Kevin
- tiltbillings
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Re: A Talk on Posermodernism
Of course, I would not take my statement seriously, nor can I take your linked talk seriously.Virgo wrote:tiltbillings wrote:Relativism must bad, given that quote by Mussolini you now have as your signature.
Kevin
What does this have to do with the Dhamma?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: A Talk on Posermodernism
I would take your statement (about relativism being bad as Musollini takes it as a support) as absolutely true. However, there is always nuance of course (which does not mean there is always full blown relativism), and "relativism" is a blanket term, there are different species of relativism, some worse than others, and of course, situationally, sometimes applying a relativistic outlook is more or less harmful than others.tiltbillings wrote:Of course, I would not take my statement seriously, nor can I take your linked talk seriously.Virgo wrote:tiltbillings wrote:Relativism must bad, given that quote by Mussolini you now have as your signature.
Kevin
What does this have to do with the Dhamma?
I understand that the person giving the talk keeps referring back to Christianity, but what it has to do with Dhamma is that, like Christianity, Dhamma is morally absolutist (though the two religions are of slightly different species), and we (Buddhists and Christians) both live in an increasingly relativistic postmodern society. Understanding what he says about Christianity and it's beliefs as it corresponds to the majority view in the secular world, corresponds to how Buddhism also fits in that same world.
- tiltbillings
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Re: A Talk on Posermodernism
But you make my point. My statement is not absolutely true, since I did mean to be taken that way.Virgo wrote:I would take your statement (about relativism being bad as Musollini takes it as a support) as absolutely true.
Ah. So relativism is relative. Absolutely.However, there is always nuance of course (which does not mean there is always full blown relativism), and "relativism" is a blanket term, there are different species of relativism, some worse than others, and of course, situationally, sometimes applying a relativistic outlook is more or less harmful than others.
Who says Buddhism is morally absolutist?I understand that the person giving the talk keeps referring back to Christianity, but what it has to do with Dhamma is that, like Christianity, Dhamma is morally absolutist (though the two religions are of slightly different species), and we (Buddhists and Christians) both live in an increasingly relativistic postmodern society. Understanding what he says about Christianity and it's beliefs as it corresponds to the majority view in the secular world, corresponds to how Buddhism also fits in that same world.
They are vastly different, coming from vastly different perceptions of reality.though the two religions are of slightly different species
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: A Talk on Posermodernism
That's the whole thing Tilt. Whatever is the truth is the truth whether we believe it to be true or not. If fascism is an extreme result of relativism then relativism is bad, no matter what, especially no matter if Tiltbillings or Kevin believes it.tiltbillings wrote:But you make my point. My statement is not absolutely true, since I did mean to be taken that way.Virgo wrote:I would take your statement (about relativism being bad as Musollini takes it as a support) as absolutely true.
Some relativists believe there are no absolute truths, it's all relative. What may be the result of the exact same actions by two different people (hypothetically) may be the different, simply based on what they believe the result to be. However, they also believe that somethings are absolutely always skillful or wise action while others are not. This view is far less detrimental than a true and extreme relativism. However, you will note, that there is a logical fallacy there-- if there are no absolute truths, there can not be some things that are always better morally.tiltbillings wrote:Ah. So relativism is relative. Absolutely.However, there is always nuance of course (which does not mean there is always full blown relativism), and "relativism" is a blanket term, there are different species of relativism, some worse than others, and of course, situationally, sometimes applying a relativistic outlook is more or less harmful than others.
The doctrine of kamma? Take a look at the Brahmajāla Sutta it is full of absolutism. The view of eternalism is wrong. The view of nihilism is wrong, etc. Killing leads to birth in hell, or the animal realms, and when one is reborn as a human life is short (unwholesome results). Buddhism is absolutist in every sense.tiltbillings wrote:Who says Buddhism is morally absolutist?I understand that the person giving the talk keeps referring back to Christianity, but what it has to do with Dhamma is that, like Christianity, Dhamma is morally absolutist (though the two religions are of slightly different species), and we (Buddhists and Christians) both live in an increasingly relativistic postmodern society. Understanding what he says about Christianity and it's beliefs as it corresponds to the majority view in the secular world, corresponds to how Buddhism also fits in that same world.
They are vastly different, coming from vastly different perceptions of reality.[/quote]though the two religions are of slightly different species
Their moral absolutisms are of slightly different species of absolutism. Their views are quite different than each other.
Kevin
- tiltbillings
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Re: A Talk on Posermodernism
If . . . . That Mussolini appealled to relativism to justify his bad behavior hardly establishes a facism as resultuing from relativism. Anything can be pushed a dysfunctional extreme -- anything.Virgo wrote:That's the whole thing Tilt. Whatever is the truth is the truth whether we believe it to be true or not. If fascism is an extreme result of relativism then relativism is bad, no matter what, especially no matter if Tiltbillings or Kevin believes it.
And where are these absolute truths?Some relativists believe there are no absolute truths, it's all relative.tiltbillings wrote:Ah. So relativism is relative. Absolutely.However, there is always nuance of course (which does not mean there is always full blown relativism), and "relativism" is a blanket term, there are different species of relativism, some worse than others, and of course, situationally, sometimes applying a relativistic outlook is more or less harmful than others.
In other words it is relative to one's point of view, according to youWhat may be the result of the exact same actions by two different people (hypothetically) may be the different, simply based on what they believe the result to be. However, they also believe that somethings are absolutely always skillful or wise action while others are not.
So, why push it to the extreme? You want to criticize extreme relativsim, but are you willing to criticize extreme absolutism?This view is far less detrimental than a true and extreme relativism.
The only logical fallacy here is this claim.However, you will note, that there is a logical fallacy there-- if there are no absolute truths, there can not be some things that are always better morally.
The doctrine of kamma? Not by its basic defintion given by the Buddha. Does killing always lead to a hell realm rebirth?The doctrine of kamma? Take a look at the Brahmajāla Sutta it is full of absolutism. The view of eternalism is wrong. The view of nihilism is wrong, etc. Killing leads to birth in hell, or the animal realms, and when one is reborn as a human life is short (unwholesome results). Buddhism is absolutist in every sense.tiltbillings wrote:Who says Buddhism is morally absolutist?I understand that the person giving the talk keeps referring back to Christianity, but what it has to do with Dhamma is that, like Christianity, Dhamma is morally absolutist (though the two religions are of slightly different species), and we (Buddhists and Christians) both live in an increasingly relativistic postmodern society. Understanding what he says about Christianity and it's beliefs as it corresponds to the majority view in the secular world, corresponds to how Buddhism also fits in that same world.
Not that you have shown.kevin wrote:Kevin wrote:though the two religions are of slightly different speciesTheir moral absolutisms are of slightly different species of absolutism.tilt wrote:They are vastly different, coming from vastly different perceptions of reality.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723