Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Sanghamitta » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:03 am

rowboat wrote:It's pretty disappointing but not very surprising to see that there is so little understanding of gender issues among the men at this website. The discourse here is at the level one would expect to find within military culture.

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Mar 05, 2012 9:33 am

Fede wrote:that they have expressed them warmly, equilaterally and positively, is unfortunately again, a recent phenomenon.
Once upon a time in the not so dim and distant past, to have admitted to, or expressed such feelings, would have resulted in ostracism and ridicule.
Then, when men began to, 'open up' it was referred to as 'being in touch with their feminine side'......
that's an interesting point, don't you think?
how is it recent? poetry, art and the like are not exclusive female domains, and certainly express emotion.
this is yet another generalisation!
Males having feelings is not the result of some modern womans movenent nor is the expression of them.
then why do these feelings - against women - persist in so called intelligent cultures?
when you are demonstrating these feelings toward men, this question is a joke, and another generalisation.
sexism is found in any era, to one extent or another, social roles and duties change with the times, and thinking that it was a stead slope instead of a wave in how either sex have been is ridiculous.
Can you not see, or understand how offended we are that as your equals in life, we are still systematically being subjected to such treatment?
where?
Broaden your view... I'm condemning the treatment of women in what we term to be third-world cultures, but also deploring western male attitudes to women, as being overbearing and authoritarian.
It goes on, it persists and it's unacceptable.
cruelty to animals makes more headlines, and causes greater outcry that current global treatment of women today.
how can men be held responsible for the third world countries? and where are men being overbearing and authoritarian in the west?
your more than willing to scream problems women have with men but not those men have with women!
And what collective crime have women been guilty of that you could hold us up to the same condemnation?
so far, in history, it seems our main crime has to have been women.....
we are not in they year 1012 but 2012 and in the west for the most part, I have not seen any condemnation here except from the three mentioned, and these examples are weak generalisations, and when a woman actually said to hold on think for a moment, she was turned on disrespected with misrepresented.
Look at this thread.
Two people have spoken up 'for' the sentiments expressed here.
Look at how bristling and defensive, and offended the men have been, and have leapt to their own defence and condemned my arguments as mere spite and hostility
you did say this (emphasis added in these quotes from other posts)
Yet the moment a woman complains - in a location frequented mostly by men - that they feel justified in resenting the male race for this treatment, there is always one that says 'women can be just as bad'.
you are saying there is no resentment here? according to http://www.merriam-webster.com/thesaurus/spite" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; they are related words and they do seam to be different angles of the same thing.

or this basis for your generalisations
Why is it then, that every time i feel i am beginning to conquer my emotional aversion to the male of the species - some dominating, arrogant, heavy-handed male chauvinist comes along, scuppers my practice and spoils it all, by proving my previous sentiments and suspicions, right?
were these sentiments and suspicions about how nice men are in general or a damn the many due to the few?

At one time I was hearing a couple of blokes say how they got verbal abuse for holding a door open for a woman, I didn't really believe this until it happened to me, and then I noticed more and more electric doors have been installed in shops, or other places frequented by the public, work places etc, could there be a relation? women don't like a door being held open for them due to the sexist nature of the act, yes a broad generalisation due to the responses of the few! and I know women who have no problem with simple acts of kindness, not going to blame the many for the misdeeds of the few!
how easy is it for a man to be accused of rape, even when it wasn't? and what is the attitude?
don't you see what women are up against in general, by the mere inclusion of those posts?
this is a cross-section and general consensus of opinion of society, condensed into a forum.....
Don't you guys get it - ?!
don't you see the general attitude men have to deal with each and every day in society? if you believe this is a one way thing where women are pure and blameless, you are wrong.
I wonder what would happen if a man expressed the sentiment being expressed by yourself in this thread.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Fede » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:33 am

read the book.
first and foremost, read the book.
then defend mankind's inhumanity towards his constant partner.
both in the past, and in the present, both in the west and elsewhere.
You see, until men have systematically known millennia of persecution simply because of their gender, to the same extent women have known it, they will always cry foul, protest and never understand.
much of your post is factually inaccurate, Cittasanto, and therefore, I would simply recommend you broaden your research.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

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Aloka
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Aloka » Mon Mar 05, 2012 10:36 am

.
For everyone....



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Alobha
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Alobha » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:02 pm

People might be interested in the discrimination of men and the side effects they suffer from based on empiric evidence, facts and numbers.
http://www.coeffic.demon.co.uk/descrim.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope this can help people to realize that stereotyping, no matter which gender, nationality or skin colour it affects, leads to many problems and much suffering for the accused. One does best by not condemning people in such a way. Men suffer greatly from the stereotypes of strength, toughness and success, too. Let us all overcome these stereotypes by stopping by judging people so much.

Metta,
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Vepacitta » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:34 pm

Men do not like it when they are questioned or when their gender is questioned or put to task. They point the finger back at the women. Men's masculinity is very very fragile, and if they feel that a woman is 'going for their bollocks' they attack. And I see a lot of attacking against women on this and the other thread.

I'll put it really simply, bullies don't like it when people stand up to them. People who have always 'been on top' (no pun intended - but well - if you want to you can intend the pun!) tend to fight back when they are challenged - civil rights and issues of people of colour are still disgraceful,especially in the US, by way of example ...

It just shows how very thin the veneer of civilisation is and how very shallow most people's understanding and cultivation of the dhamma is.

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Vepacitta » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:37 pm

test
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by DNS » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:19 pm

Vepacitta wrote:test
You see, the system works. :tongue:

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by DNS » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:24 pm

There is no question that women have been mistreated over the past several thousands of years or more. I think some men here may be posting in a defensive way because they feel the OP and other posts are directed at them. But I don't think it necessarily is directed at all men.

But the good news in all this is that I think it could (hopefully) mostly become a moot issue soon. Women are out-performing men in so many areas, including college graduation rates, numbers of college graduates and it is at all levels, bachelor's, master's and doctorates. The future CEOs and leaders will be women. More egalitiarianism is coming to religious institutions, including Buddhist ones, such as the bhikkhuni ordinations in our Theravada, etc.

Just google gender or male female college graduation and you will see so many results. The future looks bright for women and men and egalitarianism.

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:31 pm

Fede wrote:read the book.
first and foremost, read the book.
then defend mankind's inhumanity towards his constant partner.
both in the past, and in the present, both in the west and elsewhere.
You see, until men have systematically known millennia of persecution simply because of their gender, to the same extent women have known it, they will always cry foul, protest and never understand.
much of your post is factually inaccurate, Cittasanto, and therefore, I would simply recommend you broaden your research.
First and foremost you have not experienced what you have not experienced, and unless you are over 1000 years old you only have a gripe with your perceived injustices you have internalised, you have not experienced them!
and if there is inaccuracies in my post prove them wrong, show how they are wrong!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Fede » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:02 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:There is no question that women have been mistreated over the past several thousands of years or more. I think some men here may be posting in a defensive way because they feel the OP and other posts are directed at them. But I don't think it necessarily is directed at all men.
I have not directed my posts at any men, other than to name them as people I am responding to.
However, by virtue of the fact that the gentlemen here have thrown caution to the wind, and have reacted defensively (and to my perception, occasionally in an irrtated and hostile manner) to me it is an indication that they are taking matters very personally, and feeling as if i am using them as a punchbag.
i haven't done any such thing.
to summarise my sentiments from the 'other thread' (which is still subject to unmoderated posts, even though feelings appear to be running high there too.....).... :shrug:
I read the OP and equated with the sentiments expressed.
i recounted that it has been my misfortune to experience many negative situations, all of which, without exception, were initiated or perpetrated by men.
i am currently going through a very difficult and challenging situation at work which, again, has been precipitated by men, who unfortunately are also my superiors.
my situation is not an isolated case, by any means.
all hell broke loose, because men on the forum began to take my remarks as indicating that all men were like this, and i hold all men accountable for situations they're not even connected to.
Unfortunately, by making the remarks, comments and observations they did, and by criticising my comments and picking them to bits - without actually doing any extensive research to establish the veracity of my comments - they actually prove the point i was trying to make.
That whenever there is a surge of rebellion from the female contingency, men cry foul and rise up, the outcry against such blatant cheek is deafening, and they commence to argue that what i am putting forward is sheer nonsense.

This would not be unusual from a standard sector of society, but from gentlemen on a Buddhist forum - who have discussed the positive aspects of the ordination of nuns,whether it is possible for women to attain enlightenment, whether the Buddha really approved of ordaining women AND coupled with more than one thread on porn addiction(!) - these kinds of responses are frankly astonishing.

Responses can be divided into two branches:
Those which are indignant, dismissive and condescending, and those which speak of Buddhist attitude to such emotions and thoughts. i hate to say it, (but they come over as being patronising, even though the fundamental message is accurate....)
Neither branch addresses the salient facts and chief problem, and neither acknowledges the situation, or concurs with the sentiments expressed by women on this forum.....
But the good news in all this is that I think it could (hopefully) mostly become a moot issue soon. Women are out-performing men in so many areas, including college graduation rates, numbers of college graduates and it is at all levels, bachelor's, master's and doctorates. The future CEOs and leaders will be women. More egalitiarianism is coming to religious institutions, including Buddhist ones, such as the bhikkhuni ordinations in our Theravada, etc.

Just google gender or male female college graduation and you will see so many results. The future looks bright for women and men and egalitarianism.
you're right.
this is good news.
but what price have both men and women had to pay, to see such results and such a future come to fruition/
and why has it taken so long/
and furthermore - isn't it a pity that it should be newsworthy?
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Fede » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:16 pm

Cittasanto wrote: First and foremost you have not experienced what you have not experienced, and unless you are over 1000 years old you only have a gripe with your perceived injustices you have internalised, you have not experienced them!
and if there is inaccuracies in my post prove them wrong, show how they are wrong!
boy, you really, REALLY do NOT get it, do you?

I have experienced what i have experienced.
All my negative experiences have been at the hands of men.
My story is the same as that of countless millions of women, and our stories span millennia.
I am not internalising something that is still an outrage being perpetrated against women, even now as we speak. I am their voice for in far too many cases they cannot speak for themselves or are fearful.
the post above is inaccurate enough, and it is most distressing that you will obviously not read the book, because you feel that as it is not on your doorstep, it is therefore not relevant, and does not affect you.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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