Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

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Yana
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Yana » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:03 am

Oh No no no....you guys i'm so sorryy...i didn't mean it to turn out like this!

please stop.. :(

Look it's so silly lets all hold hands and step back and see the bigger picture...remember..lets not get too attached with our genders...i mean we don't even exist to begin with right?!!..and we all have probably had our fair share of being both male and female in our countless past lives.

Okay Focus on the Real enemy! Delusion!
Life is preparing for Death

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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Sanghamitta » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:07 am

Yana if you do not exist...who wrote your original post ?
Delusion results in many behaviours...including an unfair discrimination involving gender.
But I am sure the males will be delighted that you have just given them a free pass.
The going for refuge is the door of entrance to the teachings of the Buddha.

Bhikku Bodhi.

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Cittasanto
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:21 am

Sanghamitta wrote:Yana if you do not exist...who wrote your original post ?
Delusion results in many behaviours...including an unfair discrimination involving gender.
But I am sure the males will be delighted that you have just given them a free pass.
including this post by the look of it!

Yana is obviously not talking about convention truth of a person, but the identification/ego.
and she by far has given no-one a free pass!
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Kenshou
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Kenshou » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:22 am

EDIT: My, what a crappy thread this is, if I'm not careful I won't even be adhering to my own advice, so I retract my snarky sentence but leave this much:

I myself will take a free pass to point out that this is good and bears repeating:
Okay Focus on the Real enemy! Delusion!

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rowboat
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by rowboat » Mon Mar 05, 2012 3:45 am

It's pretty disappointing but not very surprising to see that there is so little understanding of gender issues among the men at this website. The discourse here is at the level one would expect to find within military culture.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Thales
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Thales » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:41 am

rowboat wrote:The discourse here is at the level one would expect to find within military culture.
Not even close. Also if being opposed to the blatant misandry in this and the other thread implies little understanding, i'm not sure what ideology you espouse but it certainly isn't Buddhist.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste, the taste of salt, so this Dhamma and Discipline has a single taste, the taste of release."

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plwk
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by plwk » Mon Mar 05, 2012 4:55 am

The other day I wanted to show my mom this... Image

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Ben
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Ben » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:11 am

For the sake of harmony, I have decided to move this thread into the Hot Topics forum which requires posts to be approved by a moderator before being published.
Please be sure that your posts remain on-topic and are in keeping with the TOS.
Thanks for your cooperation,

Ben
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in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Reductor
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Reductor » Mon Mar 05, 2012 5:32 am

Yana wrote:Oh No no no....you guys i'm so sorryy...i didn't mean it to turn out like this!

please stop.. :(

Look it's so silly lets all hold hands and step back and see the bigger picture...remember..lets not get too attached with our genders...i mean we don't even exist to begin with right?!!..and we all have probably had our fair share of being both male and female in our countless past lives.

Okay Focus on the Real enemy! Delusion!
Don't worry Yana. These he vs. she discussions come up now and again here on DW. This is not the first, by far. Usually though they take place within larger contexts, and not in threads dedicated to them.

But, in terms of your practice, remember that men, regardless what has been done by them, have feelings. They also fall prey to their own ignorance often, as do women. To pretend that specific forms of awfulness make one sex inherently inferior to another is rather crass, as feelings and ignorance persists within all beings and drive an enormous multitude of awful behaviour.

What seems especially heinous to me the position that all men are guilty of a collective crime, of which they must then prove themselves innocent. That seems the position taken by fede, sanghamitta and veppacitta.

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Fede
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Fede » Mon Mar 05, 2012 6:54 am

thereductor wrote: But, in terms of your practice, remember that men, regardless what has been done by them, have feelings.
Of course they have.
that they have expressed them warmly, equilaterally and positively, is unfortunately again, a recent phenomenon.
Once upon a time in the not so dim and distant past, to have admitted to, or expressed such feelings, would have resulted in ostracism and ridicule.
Then, when men began to, 'open up' it was referred to as 'being in touch with their feminine side'......
that's an interesting point, don't you think?
They also fall prey to their own ignorance often, as do women. To pretend that specific forms of awfulness make one sex inherently inferior to another is rather crass, as feelings and ignorance persists within all beings and drive an enormous multitude of awful behaviour.
then why do these feelings - against women - persist in so called intelligent cultures?
Can you not see, or understand how offended we are that as your equals in life, we are still systematically being subjected to such treatment?
Broaden your view... I'm condemning the treatment of women in what we term to be third-world cultures, but also deploring western male attitudes to women, as being overbearing and authoritarian.
It goes on, it persists and it's unacceptable.
cruelty to animals makes more headlines, and causes greater outcry that current global treatment of women today.
What seems especially heinous to me the position that all men are guilty of a collective crime, of which they must then prove themselves innocent. That seems the position taken by fede, sanghamitta and veppacitta.
And what collective crime have women been guilty of that you could hold us up to the same condemnation?
so far, in history, it seems our main crime has to have been women.....

Look at this thread.
Two people have spoken up 'for' the sentiments expressed here.
Look at how bristling and defensive, and offended the men have been, and have leapt to their own defence and condemned my arguments as mere spite and hostility

don't you see what women are up against in general, by the mere inclusion of those posts?
this is a cross-section and general consensus of opinion of society, condensed into a forum.....
Don't you guys get it - ?!
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Fede
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Fede » Mon Mar 05, 2012 7:35 am

Dan74 wrote:
Fede wrote:
Fede how would you feel if I said the following (and humour me, read it slowly and with an open mind):

<>snip<>
Of course, this is just what you have written with "men" replaced by "Italians". Mind you if I had used "Jewish", "Black" or "gay" the indignation is likely to be even stronger but I know that tu sei Italiana, ho deciso a scegliere questo gruppo per l'esperimente.

.........
I am sorry about your work situation and I hope it improves.
The tragic irony is that the company I work for is an Italian one, and the people involved - are Italians.
My mother - who is completely Italian - deplores the work and social ethics of men there.
sorry Dan - appreciate your effort, but like I said: It's a global problem.....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Fede
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Fede » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:00 am

Thales wrote:.....Also if being opposed to the blatant misandry in this and the other thread implies little understanding, i'm not sure what ideology you espouse but it certainly isn't Buddhist.
Misandry is an interesting word.

permit me:
.....the archaic roots misrepresent misandry’s status as a new word, a neologism: antifeminists want nothing more than to mislead the public into thinking the word has always existed. With the seed of that deception planted, they can then blame its esoteric status on a feminist conspiracy that quietly removed misandry from our vernacular, just as reports of abusive women and battered men are allegedly censored by the agents of Political Correctness. This tactic has actually met with a good measure of success: many who encounter “misandry” for the first time are given cause to wonder why they have never before heard a word that is made to seem “obvious” in nature by its proponents. By adding a veneer of Pentelic marble to “man hater,” these men are able to act as if “misandry” were an unearthed treasure waiting to be found and not a newly minted piece of plastic.
The word and its variations (misandric, misandrist, et. al) were first used only by the most militant of antifeminists, where even the most published and professional remained outliers in male society. One early adopter of “misandry” was Warren Farrell, a man who once wrote on the benefits of incest for Penthouse magazine. Yet its constant repetition over the past decade has turned it from the battle-cry of the pathetic to a banal trivia question. It serves as the answer to “what is the opposite of misogyny.....
From here.

http://adonismirror.com/10152006_leader ... thropy.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What i am stating in this thread, isn't "Misandry"
If it were, i would be focussing my attack on all specific male contributors, and taking personal pot-shots at the individual mentalities expounded.

You are missing the point.
The point is, that i am outraged at the continued unequal and deplorable mistreatment of women in society today, which has gone on, largely unhindered for centuries, and which is still being perpetuated, at times unconsciously, by the conditioning, programming, social, ethical and moral line of thinking running even in this modern age.
Last edited by Fede on Mon Mar 05, 2012 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Reductor
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Reductor » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:04 am

You have made a charge, and perhaps it is true for many men, for many times; yet it is untrue for me, for Dan and for Dave. Untrue, I suppose, for most of us here. Untrue, just as it is untrue women are weak and inferior as a group just because some women have been weak and inferior.

I bristle because you're intent on the narrative of social justice for women while being unjust in your view toward your fellow humans, because they are men. Your view of others should be fair minded, if you would have others be fair minded.

The subtext to those posts in sympathy to your own is that men are not really to be trusted first, but rather that they are to be suspect of some foul failing. Based on what? On the doings of other men at other times, in other places, and not on that man at that time. He is not to be given the benefit of the doubt.

It is akin to me thinking all women want to be, can be and should be subjugated simply because other women have been subjugated in other places and other time.

Yet the very notion of that would make you bristle all over. Indeed, you suppose that this is what would happen if you didn't bristle up. You suggest that your position is righting historical wrongs, and that it is good and proper. Your posts suggest that disagreeing with you is tantamount to being narrow viewed and rather ignorant.

Please.

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ground
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by ground » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:19 am

Fede wrote:Men and women are different, and such differences should be lauded, celebrated, enjoyed and congratulated.
I would not want to advocate what from my perspective is "the cultivation of ignorance".

Kind regards

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Dan74
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Re: Not 'man bashing' but legitimate protest.

Post by Dan74 » Mon Mar 05, 2012 8:23 am

rowboat wrote:It's pretty disappointing but not very surprising to see that there is so little understanding of gender issues among the men at this website. The discourse here is at the level one would expect to find within military culture.
I don't think it's a good tactic to engage men on the discussion of gender issues by saying that "I really don't like men".

For my part I am very sad at the continued oppression and commodification of women now in the guise of the so-called "raunch culture". But as far as I can tell it is not about men being evil but rather due to human greed and need to control.

I think gender issues are a deep topic and women have suffered enormously throughout the whole of history. I am sure that many of us have witnessed this suffering first-hand and it is truly tragic.

But as others have said men have suffered too, sometimes at the hands of women and though this does not make all things equal, the kind of division and animosity shown here does no justice to our shared nature. To the fact that women's suffering is our suffering too, you are our mothers and sisters, our daughters and nanas. This is a human tragedy, not only women's tragedy, but above all, just like Yana has said these are the fruits of delusion, the chief of which is that there is "me" and "mine".

So while sharing honestly about unfair treatment, stereotypes, discrimination and oppression can be useful in tackling this delusion, reinforcing the "us versus them" is not, I think.

May all be well!
_/|\_

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