Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Casual discussion amongst spiritual friends.

If you had to kill in self defense or to save others would you?

Yes
19
54%
No
16
46%
 
Total votes: 35

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:05 am

actually we were having a pretty well structured debate me and OP, then you come sayings there is no "bad kamma" and this thread gets 2 more pages long and you conclude with me having nothing constructive to say and misbehaving. Ask if OP confirms.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:05 am

No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:16 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:14 am
No_Mind wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 2:13 am
Then you are okay with death of children .. even though you had means to stop it?
I can't control death or what other people do. I do not intentionally kill or recomend others to kill. That is my position.
But you avoided my question. Are you okay with death of children even though you had means to stop it? Be candid and categorical .. I am not looking to challenge you .. just need clear answers on this one

No greys please .. answer in binary mode

:namaste:
"There are these four ways of answering questions. Which four? There are questions that should be answered categorically [straightforwardly yes, no, this, that]. There are questions that should be answered with an analytical (qualified) answer [defining or redefining the terms]. There are questions that should be answered with a counter-question. There are questions that should be put aside. These are the four ways of answering questions."

First the categorical answer,
then the qualified,
third, the type to be counter-questioned,
& fourth, the one to be set aside.
Any monk who knows which is which,
in line with the Dhamma,
is said to be skilled
in the four types of questions:
hard to overcome, hard to beat,
profound, hard to defeat.
He knows what's worthwhile
& what's not,
proficient in (recognizing) both,
he rejects the worthless,
grasps the worthwhile.
He's called one who has broken through
to what's worthwhile,
prudent,
wise.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
i'm not sure the question you put forth warrants a categorical answer.
however, no, i would not kill in self defense. if i were able to maintain sati during the process of making that decision. people kill in self defense because they are afraid of dying. i'm a little afraid of dying, probably a lot afraid, but i know the kamma that i would suffer if i killed would be not only worse for me but worse for others. a killer in the world is long-term suffering for killer and killed. you don't kill and retain compassion. in order to maintain loving kindness for all beings you don't kill them and instead imbue them with your mettā. this will save many, many more lives than killing will. "There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, abandoning the taking of life, abstains from taking life. In doing so, he gives freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings. In giving freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, freedom from oppression to limitless numbers of beings, he gains a share in limitless freedom from danger, freedom from animosity, and freedom from oppression. This is the first gift, the first great gift — original, long-standing, traditional, ancient, unadulterated, unadulterated from the beginning — that is not open to suspicion, will never be open to suspicion, and is unfaulted by knowledgeable contemplatives & brahmans. And this is the fourth reward of merit... https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html i hope you will at least entertain that abstaining from killing, even the killing of killers or would-be killers, is not a position of apathy, inherently
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:07 am

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:11 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:05 am
however, no, i would not kill in self defense. if i were able to maintain sati during the process of making that decision. people kill in self defense because they are afraid of dying. i'm a little afraid of dying, probably a lot afraid, but i know the kamma that i would suffer if i killed would be not only worse for me but worse for others.
How can you know the kamma of killing in self-defense will be worse for you when you are not even a stream-enterer (since you say you are afraid of dying)? If you had a child with a deadly intestinal worm & you chose to not kill the worm; do you think your mind would be at peace; because you showed compassion to a parasite worm?

User avatar
dylanj
Posts: 833
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:48 am
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:12 am

kakacupama sutta
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:13 am

dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:12 am
kakacupama sutta
For monks. :strawman:

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:15 am

he does not care for Sutta, i showed him Genesis he says fake. There is no point.
Actually same meaning that Genesis carries can be derived as it is implied in the Brahmajala Sutta.

Those Sutta are obviously not fake and are the Jewels of the Tipitaka apart from the instruction suttas, those two are incredibly famous and important to explaining the Cosmology and Ethics of Buddhism.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:19 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:15 am
i showed him Genesis he says fake.
Its fake because SN 12.44 says the origin of the world occurs at the six sense bases

But this is not fake:
Suppose, Susima, that a robber, an evil-doer, having been caught, were shown to a king: 'This, your majesty, is a robber, an evil-doer. Decree what punishment you want for him.' And so the king would say, 'Go and — having bound him with a stout rope with his arms pinned tightly against his back, having shaved him bald — march him to a harsh-sounding drum from street to street, crossroads to crossroads; evict him out the south gate of the city and there, to the south of the city, cut off his head.' Then the king's men, having bound the man with a stout rope with his arms pinned tightly against his back, would march him to a harsh-sounding drum from street to street, crossroads to crossroads, evict him out the south gate of the city and there, to the south of the city, cut off his head. What do you think, Susima? Wouldn't that man, for that reason, experience pain & distress?"

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:21 am

you do realize that there are people who have high attainments and a lot smarter than you who have no problem with any sutta, do not declare any sutta fake? Who are you to sit here judging fake or not where you have so much trouble understanding so many passages and could not explain arising of contact if your life depended on it?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
dylanj
Posts: 833
Joined: Wed Dec 14, 2016 1:48 am
Location: San Francisco
Contact:

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by dylanj » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:25 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:13 am
dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:12 am
kakacupama sutta
For monks. :strawman:
that which is for monks is for them because it's ideal, & they aspire to the ideal

i'm going to resume my practice of ignoring you now
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

User avatar
Dhammarakkhito
Posts: 1115
Joined: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:31 am
Contact:

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:28 am

the world here means two different things? if not, i digress

i will actually say as a seasoned facebook debater i greatly dislike thought experiments. like i tried alluding to, volition is not the same sitting in a temperature-controlled room on the internet and face to face with a stressful situation. i've already stated my view and i don't see a reason to reject it. i would not kill a living being in order to save a living being, if i can make the reasoning i used previously more clear i wish to
essentially, i have a consequentialist view; too much is lost trying to gain, and it's unskillful, counterproductive, evil. if i cultivate harmlessness in my own mind i will save many lives and i won't be unhappy
not having direct knowledge is what faith is for
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:30 am

dylanj wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:25 am
that which is for monks is for them because it's ideal, & they aspire to the ideal
Maybe. But does not conduce to rational discussion. When the mind is arahant, it does not impose arahant values upon lay people. :hello:

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:35 am

Would not be surprised if you are the only practicing Buddhist today who would claim those Suttas to be fake. That is how far out there you are.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

User avatar
DooDoot
Posts: 3260
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:37 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:35 am
i bet you,
you are the only practicing Buddhist today who would think those Suttas to be fake
Maybe go to Sutta Central, where the monks Brahmali & Sujato are claiming left, right & centre this & that sutta is fake. In fact, many scholar monks, including Bhikkhu Bodhi, have suspected much of the Digha Nkaya is fake. Sorry, your view appears wrong again. Even the Buddha said there would be fake suttas Why don't you start a new topic for this; for me to defeat the wrong views, again.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

rightviewftw
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: Poll - If you had to kill in self-defense would you?

Post by rightviewftw » Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:39 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:37 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Feb 19, 2018 6:35 am
i bet you,
you are the only practicing Buddhist today who would think those Suttas to be fake
Maybe go to Sutta Central, where the monks Brahmali & Sujato are claiming left, right & centre this & that sutta is fake. In fact, many scholar monks, including Bhikkhu Bodhi, have suspected much of the Digha Nkaya is fake. Sorry, your view appears wrong again.
ye show me in regards to those Sutta 1 person, 1 claim and i will leave the forum.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

Locked

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests