Taking members seriously

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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Mar 04, 2011 3:59 pm

Jechbi wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:What exactly do you want here?
In this thread, I wanted what I thought had been offered: a helpful discussion. I wasn't looking for or expecting more fireworks.
And you had no part to play in the fireworks? The example you chose was not very good, but why would think that if you are going to criticize me that that I would not respond? Why would not think that if you are going to criticize me that others here might not respond as they have?

You actually got what you wanted. You expressed a criticism of me as a moderator, and the discussion that followed was helpful, but obviously not in the way you hoped. Life is like that, sometimes, huh?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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andre9999
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by andre9999 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:10 pm

As I've learned since being married, sometimes it's best to just shut up. Chances are good that opening your mouth is just going to make things worse.

Instead of opening this suggestion thread immediately after the last heated discussion, it may have been more helpful to come back to it a week later and see if this thread really needed to be started. Even better yet, through a little metta meditation in there towards Tilt and see what happens.

And that's not to say that you're right or wrong. This thread simply hasn't been effective, so maybe there was a better option to achieve your goal.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:26 pm

andre9999 wrote: This thread simply hasn't been effective, so maybe there was a better option to achieve your goal.
What would have been an "effective" outcome? My publicly being chastised by the various members here? Clearly the idea of taking members here seriously by the staff is important and I try to do that, though not being perfect and all . . . .

I think is it important to understand that a thread such as this is highly unpredictable as to what direction is going to take, and I do not think one should be either surprised or disappointed that it goes off in a particular direction. That is simply what happens.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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Jechbi
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Jechbi » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:32 pm

andre9999 wrote:Even better yet, through a little metta meditation in there towards Tilt and see what happens.
Absolutely. I certainly have done this. For me, it's very good practice to deliberately send metta and thoughts of good will not only to myself and the people I care about, but also to people I am neutral about and to people with whom I have had disputes.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

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Jechbi
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Jechbi » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:45 pm

Tilt, earlier you told me:
tiltbillings wrote:No one is telling you do not have legitimate grievances
So there are different possible focal points for comments in this tread, including:
1) The underlying concerns about things that sometimes happen on this board; and
2) My manner if conveying those concerns.

Many of the responses have focused on my manner of conveying those concerns. Few have focused on the underlying concerns. I don't want to dwell on it or try to prove a point. I don't want to litigate. I don't want to dig around and come up with lots of examples. But I also don't want to keep having the focus put again and again on my manner of conveying these concerns. That wasn't supposed to be the topic.
tiltbillings wrote:What would have been an "effective" outcome? My publicly being chastised by the various members here?
No, certainly not. I can't tell you exactly what an "effective" outcome might be for this discussion. A discussion like this is what the participants make of it. I will say that I have seen venues where leadership receives public criticism without the critics being subject to a backlash. I have seen venues where leadership receives criticism graciously and uses it as a starting point to begin to explore what prompted the underlying concerns to be expressed. I have seen venues where, even if the criticism seems unfair, the leadership gives it due consideration, with the benefit of the doubt, and examines publicly in what manner the leadership itself might have inadvertantly elicited those concerns.

I think an "effective" outcome also will always be one in which we all continue to treat one another in a friendly way and with respect.

I accept my faults in the manner in which I have raised these concerns. I would love to see Dhamma Wheel as a venue where leadership can publicly make lemonade out of those lemons.
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.

PeterB
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by PeterB » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:48 pm

I see no reason why this thread should ever end....... 8-)

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andre9999
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by andre9999 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:50 pm

tiltbillings wrote:What would have been an "effective" outcome? My publicly being chastised by the various members here?
I dunno, have we tried publicly chastising you yet? I haven't been here long.

I didn't say that there was a more effective outcome of a thread like this. I personally don't feel like a blog or a new thread about something like this is going to be beneficial to anyone. I don't recall the Buddha ever saying that Right Speech includes standing on a mount and telling the town what an a-hole that one guy is.

My most effective communication with people I disagree with is either through empathy in a one-on-one discussion or just letting it all go. It works best for me.

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andre9999
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by andre9999 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 4:52 pm

Jechbi wrote:I accept my faults in the manner in which I have raised these concerns.
You may accept your faults, but you sure don't seem to be doing much to improve upon them. I think pretty much everyone here has said that you should just drop it. You've made yourself crystal clear, but yet you keep going on and on about it.

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Aloka
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Aloka » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:06 pm

I was reading this and thought it might be relevant:
When you are suffering - 'Why am I suffering? Why am I miserable?' Because you are clinging to something! Find out what you are clinging to, to get to the source.

'I'm unhappy because nobody loves me.' That may be true, maybe nobody loves you, but the unhappiness comes from wanting people to love you. Even if they do love you, you will still have suffering if you think that other people are responsible for your happiness or your suffering.

Someone says, 'You are the greatest person in the world!' – and you jump for joy. Someone says, 'You are the most horrible person I've met in my life!' – and you get depressed. Let go of depression, let go of happiness. Keep the practice simple: live your life mindfully, morally, and have faith in letting go
.
from 'Letting Go' by Ajahn Sumedho
_/\_


http://www.vipassanadhura.com/lettinggo.html

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Rael
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by Rael » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:11 pm

hi...wow drama galore.....

i really think any input at all towards anything other than reply to the post and not the poster or your interpretation of a poster's agenda....

would end a lot of this....

i'm here from the mahayana site and find this whole affair disturbing....the two links to discussion are locked and i had input to post...can't....sad ...really sad...


said in my best peter fond easy rider voice"Get it together people"

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tiltbillings
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by tiltbillings » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:13 pm

Jechbi wrote:Tilt, earlier you told me:
tiltbillings wrote:No one is telling you do not have legitimate grievances
So there are different possible focal points for comments in this tread, including:
1) The underlying concerns about things that sometimes happen on this board; and
2) My manner if conveying those concerns.

Many of the responses have focused on my manner of conveying those concerns.
And you might want to ask yourself, why?
No, certainly not. I can't tell you exactly what an "effective" outcome might be for this discussion. A discussion like this is what the participants make of it. I will say that I have seen venues where leadership receives public criticism without the critics being subject to a backlash.
That is nice; however, it serves no purpose for a faulty criticism to go unchallenged.
I have seen venues where leadership receives criticism graciously and uses it as a starting point to begin to explore what prompted the underlying concerns to be expressed. I have seen venues where, even if the criticism seems unfair, the leadership gives it due consideration, with the benefit of the doubt, and examines publicly in what manner the leadership itself might have inadvertantly elicited those concerns.
The reality, J, is that your criticisms have been given a considerable amount of attention by the staff here. This public business may not be the way the Dhamma Wheel runs itself, so you are going to keep harping on this over and over and over? First of all I do not see any particular benefit of hashing out complaints publicly (which is not to say that certain issues cannot be talked about publicly), but I do see a lot of problems coming out of that. Look at this thread. Quite frankly, had your complaints of a year ago been played out publicly, things would likely not have gone any better for you then than they are going for you now.
I think an "effective" outcome also will always be one in which we all continue to treat one another in a friendly way and with respect.
The staff tries and I think does a decent job at it.
I would love to see Dhamma Wheel as a venue where leadership can publicly make lemonade out of those lemons.
So, with every complaint, it must played out publicly? Is that what you are saying? And if Dhamma Wheel does not want to function that way, you will continue to complain about it?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723

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GIDGE
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by GIDGE » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:18 pm

Aloka wrote:I was reading this and thought it might be relevant:
When you are suffering - 'Why am I suffering? Why am I miserable?' Because you are clinging to something! Find out what you are clinging to, to get to the source.

'I'm unhappy because nobody loves me.' That may be true, maybe nobody loves you, but the unhappiness comes from wanting people to love you. Even if they do love you, you will still have suffering if you think that other people are responsible for your happiness or your suffering.

Someone says, 'You are the greatest person in the world!' – and you jump for joy. Someone says, 'You are the most horrible person I've met in my life!' – and you get depressed. Let go of depression, let go of happiness. Keep the practice simple: live your life mindfully, morally, and have faith in letting go
.
from 'Letting Go' by Ajahn Sumedho
_/\_


http://www.vipassanadhura.com/lettinggo.html

:goodpost:

palchi
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by palchi » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:33 pm

"We have to liberate ourselves not other people. We should not look to the outside for liberation, we must liberate ourselves. The way to be liberated is to live with a simple mind in the present. This is the main point of the teachings. The most precious teaching is to accept everything that is happening to you. Accept everything at that very moment. If you go to a restaurant, whether you like the food that is given to you or not, you accept that particular food. You need to give up the whole idea of not liking: whatever food ist presented to you, edible or not, you accept it; whatever accommodation is offered to you, whether good or bad, you accept it; however people treat you, whether kindly, softly, lovingly, or badly, you accept that. It is all about being non-judgemental: you do not judge the food, the clothing, what is right, what is wrong. You accept the situation, whatever you experience. You appreciate everything that is happening, not just the positive things, like when somebody is kind to you, but also when someone is unkind to you and you do not like it. The teachings say you should appreciate any experience. Whoever is presenting you with the experience, you should be thankful to them."
Akong Rinpoche, Limitless Compassion

It's a quote from a Tibetan Buddhist teacher but feels relevant here....

PeterB
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by PeterB » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:35 pm

palchi wrote:"We have to liberate ourselves not other people. We should not look to the outside for liberation, we must liberate ourselves. The way to be liberated is to live with a simple mind in the present. This is the main point of the teachings. The most precious teaching is to accept everything that is happening to you. Accept everything at that very moment. If you go to a restaurant, whether you like the food that is given to you or not, you accept that particular food. You need to give up the whole idea of not liking: whatever food ist presented to you, edible or not, you accept it; whatever accommodation is offered to you, whether good or bad, you accept it; however people treat you, whether kindly, softly, lovingly, or badly, you accept that. It is all about being non-judgemental: you do not judge the food, the clothing, what is right, what is wrong. You accept the situation, whatever you experience. You appreciate everything that is happening, not just the positive things, like when somebody is kind to you, but also when someone is unkind to you and you do not like it. The teachings say you should appreciate any experience. Whoever is presenting you with the experience, you should be thankful to them."
Akong Rinpoche, Limitless Compassion

It's a quote from a Tibetan Buddhist teacher but feels relevant here....
I couldnt resist noting that I once went to a restaurant...and Akong Rinpoche was there. :smile: This was at the UK's only Tibetan restaurant in Leicester Square in London...now sadly closed...but I digress.
Fortunately the food was very good.
But of course his point is spot on.

palchi
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Re: Taking members seriously

Post by palchi » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:47 pm

PeterB wrote:
palchi wrote:"We have to liberate ourselves not other people. We should not look to the outside for liberation, we must liberate ourselves. The way to be liberated is to live with a simple mind in the present. This is the main point of the teachings. The most precious teaching is to accept everything that is happening to you. Accept everything at that very moment. If you go to a restaurant, whether you like the food that is given to you or not, you accept that particular food. You need to give up the whole idea of not liking: whatever food ist presented to you, edible or not, you accept it; whatever accommodation is offered to you, whether good or bad, you accept it; however people treat you, whether kindly, softly, lovingly, or badly, you accept that. It is all about being non-judgemental: you do not judge the food, the clothing, what is right, what is wrong. You accept the situation, whatever you experience. You appreciate everything that is happening, not just the positive things, like when somebody is kind to you, but also when someone is unkind to you and you do not like it. The teachings say you should appreciate any experience. Whoever is presenting you with the experience, you should be thankful to them."
Akong Rinpoche, Limitless Compassion

It's a quote from a Tibetan Buddhist teacher but feels relevant here....
I couldnt resist noting that I once went to a restaurant...and Akong Rinpoche was there. :smile: This was at the UK's only Tibetan restaurant in Leicester Square in London...now sadly closed...but I digress.
Fortunately the food was very good.
But of course his point is spot on.
nice one :smile: I saw a picture of him visiting South Africa - in all local dress...

:anjali:

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