Thumbs up button

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by DNS » Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:40 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: A simple downvote would be a much less obnoxious way to express your disapproval.
You're right, that was an obnoxious way to express disapproval; which demonstrates how bad the reputation system is. The reputation is a bunch of up and down votes, a keeping score and who makes the votes? All members make votes and that includes trolls.
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote: We would not be having this conversation at all if the Trolls were not allowed to run riot here, but some of us are suggesting ways that might bring trolling to the attention of the mods without disrupting the forum any further.
And trolls and all of their sock puppets (extra accounts) would be voting too. What if the forum became inundated with secular Buddhists? And some have said that this has already occurred, by the way. Secular posts would be up-voted and traditional Buddhist posts would be down-voted. We don't want that at a Buddhist forum of the Theravada. The truth is not elected. The popular vote doesn't get to choose what remains part of Buddhism and what doesn't.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by hahaha » Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:33 pm

One time, I made a really stupid topic about how to achieve jhana on suttacentral forum and it got a lot of upvotes. Votes tell little about the person making the post. They tell more about the general understanding of the forum and about what traditions the majority follows. If someone wants to know what traditions are popular on the forum or what opinions they have about jhana or other things, I think it's better to start a topic with a poll about it.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by samseva » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:24 pm

perkele wrote:@samseva? I think you are a web programmer or something, or are you not?
I think santa's suggested way here, to implement this on a per-post basis (not a reputation count for the person) could be actually the best way, and also the display of who gave thumbs-up, I think that would be neat, but one could also store the total count of upvotes for each person in the database and display it next to the avatar (although I find that less interesting and less nice to have and "accumulate").
Perhaps with a good demonstration page where this is implemented, and having done and prepared the gruntwork so that it can easily be installed, the rulers here could perhaps be convinced of its usefulness in such a form or similar.
Web designer (previously). But the phpBB code could be found.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by samseva » Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:55 pm

I think the points made by David, Paul and a few others about opting for not having an upvote (and downvote) system are good. Having an upvote system could change the dynamics of Dhamma Wheel quite drastically (i.e. similar to the tense and sometimes popularity-centered—rather than good and correct advice—sites like StackExchange). It gets even more complicated, as Dhamma is not as techincal as say electronics or mathematics.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by samseva » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:08 pm

But, not having a system at all also results in not having really good benefits which could really improve Dhamma Wheel. That is why there should maybe be something other than an upvote system, but something similar should still be added. What would be really great would be to have a "Thanks" button. Like the following:

Image

Popularity wouldn't be an issue, but helping people out would be encouraged. Most importantly, it would be feedback to show people who take time out of their day and week to write posts to help people out. If you find out what you write helps people, it shows you are doing something worthwhile, and it motivates you the continue. On the contrary, not getting feedback (because people don't really give any or don't want to disrupt the conversation) results in not wanting to invest time in something which seems to not help anyone at all.

And for the upvotes, the :goodpost: solution is good, but it could be so much more discreet. Rather than having a comical/slightly ridiculous emoticon, a smaller symbol/icon would be so much better.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by freedom » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:19 pm

I am not for or against the voting system. However, if we are for the voting system. I am wondering why don't we leave the votes to the moderators and the bhikkhus at the start. Most of these people are well trained in the forum rules and tradition, so their likes or dislikes will better reflect what the forum and the tradition is about.

Eventually, member who earns enough credits will be (automatically) able to vote. Whoever lost his/her credits will be rejected the right to vote (if this is practical.)

Example:

A post from member A with 6 likes and 4 dislikes will earn 6 - 4 = 2 points. A post with 1 like and 9 dislikes = - 8 points. Up to now, member A has total of 100 posts. He earns total 70 points. He is qualified for vote. However, he eventually posts many negative posts. He earns -40 points for these posts; therefore, he now has total of 30 points, and he is rejected from the voting right.

I know this is complicated and may not be practical. However, this is just an idea.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by hahaha » Sun Feb 12, 2017 7:32 pm

Popularity wouldn't be an issue, but helping people out would be encouraged. Most importantly, it would be feedback to show people who take time out of their day and week to write posts to help people out. If you find out what you write helps people, it shows you are doing something worthwhile, and it motivates you the continue. On the contrary, not getting feedback (because people don't really give any or don't want to disrupt the conversation) results in not wanting to invest time in something which seems to not help anyone at all.
Ego rewards are a powerful and cheap motivation. But those who really are about helping others will do it without ego rewards.
Most of these people are well trained in the forum rules and tradition, so their likes or dislikes will better reflect what the forum and the tradition is about.
There are many different traditions and different interpretations. What this would do would be to promote the tradition that happens to be popular among higher members of the forum. And this brings the same problems as with having the whole forum vote: promoting the tradition and interpretation that is most popular on the particular forum.

Those who form the majority tradition already have more power to propagate their ideas by the simple fact that they are bigger in numbers. Why create another system to further help promote the dominant tradition ? Why not let newcomers use their own mind, not the majority mind, to figure out who is right in a debate or witch tradition is more in line with what Buddha taught ?

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by freedom » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:08 pm

hahaha wrote:
There are many different traditions and different interpretations. What this would do would be to promote the tradition that happens to be popular among higher members of the forum. And this brings the same problems as with having the whole forum vote: promoting the tradition and interpretation that is most popular on the particular forum.

Those who form the majority tradition already have more power to propagate their ideas by the simple fact that they are bigger in numbers. Why create another system to further help promote the dominant tradition ? Why not let newcomers use their own mind, not the majority mind, to figure out who is right in a debate or witch tradition is more in line with what Buddha taught ?
When a man wants to be a member in your house, he should respect your house's rules and tradition at first. Otherwise, you would not welcome him in your house (I guess.) Just as you cannot go to a Christian's forum and tell them that they should not believe in Jesus, but they should believe in kamma instead.

If we come to a forum for debating, we are actually not there for learning, but to show off our ego. We come here to learn and share our understandings. Even if our ideas are not well received in the forum, it does not mean that it is wrong. Just that it is not appropriate in that environment.

If a newcomer has the same belief with the community or the community accept his/her belief, he/she will be easily received into the community. A tradition is a collection of people with similar belief/understanding. If we do not have the same belief system, we do not belong to that tradition.

If we think that we can come to a tradition/community to change its belief, we will surely in trouble. Just try to go to a Christian's forum and debate that there is no God.

Ironically, the gate to heaven is small but the gate to hell is extremely large. The wise is hard to find, but the fools are everywhere. If we rely on the majority, we will be in trouble.

Of course, there is no perfect system. Any system will has some flaws. However, if it serves our purposes then it is worth to follow.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by hahaha » Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:36 pm

When a man wants to be a member in your house, he should respect your house's rules and tradition at first. Otherwise, you would not welcome him in your house (I guess.) Just as you cannot go to a Christian's forum and tell them that they should not believe in Jesus, but they should believe in kamma instead.
What you do not seem to understand is that there are numerous traditions and radically different interpretations within theravada. It is this that I was speaking about.
If we come to a forum for debating, we are actually not there for learning, but to show off our ego. We come here to learn and share our understandings. Even if our ideas are not well received in the forum, it does not mean that it is wrong. Just that it is not appropriate in that environment.
Buddha was not afraid of debating with wanderers of other sects. And the tradition of debating is still preserved within the tibetan tradition. It is only in the west that we find this no-debate attitude. This was discussed here: http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=28873

Also, in order to convince a materialist to become a buddhist, you don't do it by force. At least that is not how Buddha did it. Buddha did it through debating, not through silencing people who were not buddhist to begin with. You may think that you are convincing people by silencing them but actually that only reinforces their beliefs. Only way you can change a person opinion is through debating.
Ironically, the gate to heaven is small but the gate to hell is extremely large. The wise is hard to find, but the fools are everywhere. If we rely on the majority, we will be in trouble.
I agree. And this is one of the problems of a voting who is right system.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by freedom » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:30 pm

hahaha wrote: What you do not seem to understand is that there are numerous traditions and radically different interpretations within theravada. It is this that I was speaking about.

Buddha was not afraid of debating with wanderers of other sects. And the tradition of debating is still preserved within the tibetan tradition. It is only in the west that we find this no-debate attitude.
If we think our interpretation is correct and the community here is not, then we do not belong to the community here. There will be other theravada communities elsewhere that will share the same belief with us. However, if we share our understandings, and the community here accept what we represent, then we belong to this community.

If our interpretations persuade to the community, eventually the community may accept what we represent. Otherwise, we are in the wrong place or presenting our ideas at the wrong time.

The Buddha was not afraid of debating because he is the Buddha with perfect knowledge, but we are not. Even though, we can see there are many times the Buddha refused to answer the questions. We are still in learning stages. We do not possess the truth. How could we be sure what we know is the truth? I am not a westerner, but I do not like to engage in debate. I only share what I understand. I believe my understanding could be wrong and others will point out the mistakes so I can learn from them.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by hahaha » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:51 pm

If we think our interpretation is correct and the community here is not, then we do not belong to the community here. There will be other theravada communities elsewhere that will share the same belief with us. However, if we share our understandings, and the community here accept what we represent, then we belong to this community.

If our interpretations persuade to the community, eventually the community may accept what we represent. Otherwise, we are in the wrong place or presenting our ideas at the wrong time.
So what is the main interpretation here ? Suttanta, traditionalist, mahasi, goenka, buddhadasa... ?
The Buddha was not afraid of debating because he is the Buddha with perfect knowledge, but we are not. Even though, we can see there are many times the Buddha refused to answer the questions. We are still in learning stages. We do not possess the truth. How could we be sure what we know is the truth? I am not a westerner, but I do not like to engage in debate. I only share what I understand. I believe my understanding could be wrong and others will point out the mistakes so I can learn from them.
So nobody except an arahant should engage in debates ? Buddha taught his bhikkhus how to debate and praised them for engaging in debates with wanderers of other sects. There is even a sutta called "The debating hall". Where did you get the idea that only arahants should engage in debates ?

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:54 pm

Greetings freedom,
freedom wrote:If our interpretations persuade to the community, eventually the community may accept what we represent. Otherwise, we are in the wrong place or presenting our ideas at the wrong time.
I disagree.

As individuals we should endeavour to learn from the perspectives of others who hold different views - not measure the value of contributions by the extent to which they convert or conform with the majority view.

To paraphrase Groove Armada, if everybody thought the same, we'd get tired of talking to each other.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by freedom » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:18 pm

hahaha wrote: So nobody except an arahant should engage in debates ? Buddha taught his bhikkhus how to debate and praised them for engaging in debates with wanderers of other sects. There is even a sutta called "The debating hall". Where did you get the idea that only arahants should engage in debates ?
To my understanding, we debate because we believe what we know is correct and others are not, and we try to convert others to our beliefs. In debating, there is a winner and a loser.

In sharing and discussing ideas, we do not fix into what we understand because we believe they may not be correct and we should change them if we can find better ideas. There is no winner or loser in discussing ideas. If others believe in what we say, it's OK, but this does not always mean that we are correct. If not, we should also learn to see why and find out our mistakes if any. However, if you like to debate, it's up to you. Maybe, this is just a wording problem.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by freedom » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:25 pm

retrofuturist wrote: I disagree.

As individuals we should endeavour to learn from the perspectives of others who hold different views - not measure the value of contributions by the extent to which they convert or conform with the majority view.

To paraphrase Groove Armada, if everybody thought the same, we'd get tired of talking to each other.

Metta,
Paul. :)
We always want to learn from others who hold different views. They are our best teachers. However, if we focus on winning a debate, we will lose our opportunity to learn from others. Moreover, if we come to debate, we come with a fixed view, and it is hard to change.
One should not be negligent of discernment, should guard the truth, be devoted to relinquishment, and train only for calm - MN 140.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by retrofuturist » Sun Feb 12, 2017 11:28 pm

Greetings freedom,

That is true of anyone who is clinging to their views, which is all the more reason not to introduce any measures which attempt to socially engineer any conformity in view.

If anyone wishes to ask a question and be confident that they're only receiving valid Theravada-oriented responses, I suggest they try the Discovering Theravada section, or if they're exclusively interested in the "classical" perspective, try the Classical Theravada section.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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