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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:57 am

A simple upvote downvote system like on the Vivaldi forums works well. I receive notifications for upvotes, but not for downvotes. The vote count for each post indicates how popular the feature request is. Here, it would be a vote for the quality of the reply. If someone gets a lot of downvotes, others will soon realise that they are not worth paying attention to.

More complex system like on the old Serif forums count posts as well as reputation votes. As the post count passes certain thresholds you get a new label like Guru, Master, Expert, etc., while the reputation votes add up to green squares (or red squares if someone only makes negative posts).

Simpler is better IMO. Everyone should understand that it's just a rough guide to knowledge or behaviour, as any reputation system. I know two monks with an OBE. One thoroughly deserved it, the other did not.
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cjmacie
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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by cjmacie » Sat Feb 11, 2017 1:07 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:...More complex system like on the old Serif forums count posts as well as reputation votes. As the post count passes certain thresholds you get a new label like Guru, Master, Expert, etc., while the reputation votes add up to green squares (or red squares if someone only makes negative posts)...
That must have been a s/w well-behaved environment. There's also a kind of posting mania that can border on psychopathology.

"Sea-lioning" also can contribute to posting volume.

Otherwise, some good ideas I hadn't been aware of.

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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by santa100 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:21 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:A quick click to downvote the post indicates to everyone that the person is perhaps a troll.
Well, then the quality of the post would depends entirely on the trolls vs. non-trolls ratio in those who voted. On a bad day, if the trolls outnumbers the non-trolls, all the good posts would get downvoted and nasty ones would get upvoted. And vice versa. So if we're to implement the voting system, then we should also open up info. about the voter "demography". For when it comes to the evaluation of a specific technical point on a specific Dhamma topic, a downvote from a davidbrainerd is not exactly the same as a downvote from Ven. Dhammanando or Pesala. And if on a particular day, there're 2 or 3 davidbrainerd's for every Dhammanando, then...you get the picture. And this might explains what happened to those 2 monks in your post:
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:I know two monks with an OBE. One thoroughly deserved it, the other did not.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by DNS » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:35 pm

Off-topic posts from the "Future of Dhamma Wheel" thread have been moved here since those posts were about the reputation, thumbs up system.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by Zom » Sat Feb 11, 2017 4:52 pm

On our russian theravada forum we made "Only Upvotes" system, there is no "Downvote" button at all. Reputation (N of votes received) is shown just below the avatar near the N of posts. Works good. Usually good posters have 2:1 proportion (like ~2 votes per 1 message). Trolls and non-buddhists - vice versa, like 1 vote per 2 or even 3-4 messages. People who argue too much, but who are generally buddhists, have ~1:1 proportion.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by DNS » Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:12 pm

What would be the point? It would just become a competition for who can get the most up-votes. I still don't like it. The answer is still no unless I can hear much more compelling points (and if the other mods agreed too), so far still no good reason that I can see for having it.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by Zom » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:43 pm

What would be the point?
Newcomer sees whose posts worth paying attention and whose not so much .)
It would just become a competition for who can get the most up-votes
Not necessarily, at least, well, not all the time for sure. As for me, I'm okay with the present "no-karma" system as well. However, I don't like "Downvote" system - people feel really bad when they get negative status and so don't feel free to enter a conversation or start a topic.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by binocular » Sat Feb 11, 2017 6:51 pm

Zom wrote:Newcomer sees whose posts worth paying attention and whose not so much .)
And online Buddhist forums are such good representatives of what is relevant in Buddhism, right?
Especially when the TOS and the leadership of the forums are in conflict with some of the teachings in the Pali suttas ...

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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by Mkoll » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:21 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:It would just become a competition for who can get the most up-votes.
I wouldn't frame it like that. I'd frame it as encouragement to make the most high-quality posts. And that's not a bad thing.

I like Zom's idea or the way they do it on Sutta Central where one can "like" posts but not "dislike" them and there is no obvious reputation gauge for members if there is one at all. The fact is, a lot of sites with discussion sections use reputation, "like" systems, upvoting-downvoting, or similar including some of the most popular like Facebook and Reddit.
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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by binocular » Sat Feb 11, 2017 7:29 pm

Bringing attention to this post from over six years ago, earlier in this thread:

retrofuturist wrote:If the quality of the Dhamma was determined by popular vote, then this may have some practical use.

However, since realistically it's not, this functionality is only likely to create tension and turn the art of posting into a popularity contest.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by R1111 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 8:00 pm

Imho stating what tradition one follows if any has no drawbacks and is a good measure to take.
For rating i think if done right it is an important tool for contemporary e-Sangha so i think it is almost our duty to look for optimimal solutions to facilitate encouraging of Right discussion, right view and proper debate. I think publicly showing a members status ratio of the Amount of thanks divided by Total posts for what it is could be safe otherwise maybe we can drop it if we cant think of a good solution together. Perhaps make a Theravada Contemporary Debate section and a Theravada contemporary discussion section with strict moderation according to Kathavatthu Suttas http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by Zom » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:40 pm

And online Buddhist forums are such good representatives of what is relevant in Buddhism, right?
I can judge taking into account our russian theravada forum. It just works there and everyone is quite happy with the system. The majority there knows what is wrong and what is right and so good posts immediately get promotion and attention and don't lost among (mostly) meaningless or non-dhammic topics and conversations. But again, I'm okay with the present system on dhammawheel as well. The positive side of it is that it triggers less one's conceit.

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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:58 pm

santa100 wrote:For when it comes to the evaluation of a specific technical point on a specific Dhamma topic, a downvote from a davidbrainerd is not exactly the same as a downvote from Ven. Dhammanando or Pesala. And if on a particular day, there're 2 or 3 davidbrainerd's for every Dhammanando, then...you get the picture. And this might explains what happened to those 2 monks in your post:
On the Vivaldi forum, new users don't get any voting rights until they have accumulated some upvotes. If they are trolls, they will get more downvotes from the regular members, and never win the right to vote. Hopefully, the mods would ban them if their negative count reaches a certain point.

The voting system for an OBE is not a public vote and I have no clue how it actually works. If it was done by public votes like Sports Personality of the Year those with cronies who are politicians would not do so well, and those charity workers who really deserve it would do much better.
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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by SarathW » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:37 pm

Majorities view may not be the best answer or the best solution. In Sutta Central they use like button to prop up popular posts,
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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by DNS » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:48 pm

Democracy is far from being a perfect system and the thumbs-up system would have all the faults of democracy (the majority don't decide truth) with all the corruption. I can see trolls conspiring together with practices like "I'll give you thumbs-up for all your posts if you do the same for me." And/or trolls could set up all kinds of sock-puppet (extra) accounts for the sole purpose of giving more thumbs-up to their own posts and thumbs-down for those that disagree with them. Yes, there are IP markings that mods can see, but there are now anonymizers and tor browsers to easily get around the IP identifications.

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Re: What is the future of Dhamma Wheel

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:55 pm

Greetings,
Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:Hopefully, the mods would ban them if their negative count reaches a certain point
That sounds like a recipe for a "mob mentality". I can just imagine the covert campaigns set up to gang up and unfairly target certain members with down votes until they're booted.

To be clear, members here will not be suspended or banned for being unpopular or expressing unpopular or heterodox views.... only for Terms of Service violations.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by R1111 » Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:59 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Democracy is far from being a perfect system and the thumbs-up system would have all the faults of democracy (the majority don't decide truth) with all the corruption. I can see trolls conspiring together with practices like "I'll give you thumbs-up for all your posts if you do the same for me." And/or trolls could set up all kinds of sock-puppet (extra) accounts for the sole purpose of giving more thumbs-up to their own posts and thumbs-down for those that disagree with them. Yes, there are IP markings that mods can see, but there are now anonymizers and tor browsers to easily get around the IP identifications.
One can also have a system with 1 positive vote per person, that is seemingly harder to exploit. However you know more about security and trolling than me so i leave it up to you.

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by Mkoll » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:04 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:Democracy is far from being a perfect system and the thumbs-up system would have all the faults of democracy (the majority don't decide truth) with all the corruption. I can see trolls conspiring together with practices like "I'll give you thumbs-up for all your posts if you do the same for me." And/or trolls could set up all kinds of sock-puppet (extra) accounts for the sole purpose of giving more thumbs-up to their own posts and thumbs-down for those that disagree with them. Yes, there are IP markings that mods can see, but there are now anonymizers and tor browsers to easily get around the IP identifications.
Couldn't this be fixed by requiring a certain number of posts before one can vote on anything? Say 15 or 25? Some forums have a minimum number of posts a new member has to make before they get certain privileges. DW may as well, but I don't remember.
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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by Aloka » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:15 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:What would be the point? It would just become a competition for who can get the most up-votes. I still don't like it. The answer is still no unless I can hear much more compelling points (and if the other mods agreed too), so far still no good reason that I can see for having it.
:goodpost:

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Re: Thumbs up button

Post by DNS » Sat Feb 11, 2017 11:16 pm

Mkoll wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:Democracy is far from being a perfect system and the thumbs-up system would have all the faults of democracy (the majority don't decide truth) with all the corruption. I can see trolls conspiring together with practices like "I'll give you thumbs-up for all your posts if you do the same for me." And/or trolls could set up all kinds of sock-puppet (extra) accounts for the sole purpose of giving more thumbs-up to their own posts and thumbs-down for those that disagree with them. Yes, there are IP markings that mods can see, but there are now anonymizers and tor browsers to easily get around the IP identifications.
Couldn't this be fixed by requiring a certain number of posts before one can vote on anything? Say 15 or 25? Some forums have a minimum number of posts a new member has to make before they get certain privileges. DW may as well, but I don't remember.
Also very easy to circumvent. Remember a certain persistent member here who kept coming back over and over under different aliases? Some of his extra accounts had well over 100 posts.

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