Wrong vs disagree

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char101
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Wrong vs disagree

Post by char101 »

In some discussion I saw some users which are eager to use the word wrong versus the more proper term, disagree.

But logically, can someone who only knows the meaning of text by mere words calls another people opinion wrong?

Even if one's opinion actually aligns with the fact, without seeing the fact oneself, how do one know that their opinion is true?

The Buddha or an arahat can call other people opinion as wrong because they have seen the truth themselves. Thus their words are facts and not opinion.

To call other people opinion as wrong, one must be claiming oneself as someone who knows the truth, an enlightened being.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings char101,

Not necessarily. If I tell you the Earth is flat, I would be flat out wrong. Similarly, if an arahant tells you the Earth is flat, they would be flat out wrong too.

You're going into matters of epistemology here. I'm not sure what you expect done of it, in the context of it being a suggestion?

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
char101
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by char101 »

You are mixing facts that are verifiable by human senses vs spiritual understanding like jhana or nibanna that can only be realized by personal development (bhavana).

Of course, I do not mean things where the fact can be verified by everyone. If I say that the Buddha was born in Thailand, that would be most likely wrong (by the account of historical evidence). What I meant was, right or wrong about the understanding of Dhamma.

My suggestion: when one meant disagree, don't use the word wrong.

Sorry I didn't mean it for suggestion about the site, but suggestion for the users of the site.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by JamesTheGiant »

char101 wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:13 am
My suggestion: when one meant disagree, don't use the word wrong.
If I disagree with you, I must believe you are wrong.
Disagreeing is founded on believing someone else is wrong.
But maybe they're wrong. Who knows!

To call other people opinion as wrong, one must be claiming oneself as someone who knows the truth, an enlightened being.
No, that is wrong. In fact, it's worse than wrong, it's nonsense.
To call other people wrong is a natural part of human behavior, and has no connection to claims of enlightenment.
You are reading too much meaning into it.
char101
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by char101 »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:46 am
char101 wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 8:13 am
My suggestion: when one meant disagree, don't use the word wrong.
If I disagree with you, I must believe you are wrong.
Disagreeing is founded on believing someone else is wrong.
But maybe they're wrong. Who knows!

To call other people opinion as wrong, one must be claiming oneself as someone who knows the truth, an enlightened being.
No, that is wrong. In fact, it's worse than wrong, it's nonsense.
To call other people wrong is a natural part of human behavior, and has no connection to claims of enlightenment.
You are reading too much meaning into it.
I disagree with you.
char101
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by char101 »

To able able to communicate better is a life skill.
Saying somebody is wrong
When you hear somebody say something that you know is wrong, you want to tell them. Here are ten polite and less polite ways of telling them they're wrong.

10 expressions to Use In Speaking And Writing:
1. I'm afraid that's not quite right.
2. Actually, I think you'll find that...
3. I'm afraid you're mistaken.
4. I don't think you're right about...
5. Actually, I don't think...
6. No, you've got it wrong.
7. No, that's all wrong.
8. Rubbish! / You're talking rubbish.
9. Where did you hear that?
10. If you check your facts, you'll find...

1. Phrases 1 and 2 are fairly polite. If you really want to be polite you could make an apology first e.g. 'I'm sorry to disagree, but...'
2. Phrases 3 and 4 are a little stronger and a little less polite
3. You follow phrase 4 with a noun phrase or a gerund.
4. Phrases 6 and 7 are very strong. You may upset the person you are talking to so you should be really sure about your own facts before you say one of these.
5. Phrases 8 and 9 are actually quite rude. Even people who know each other quite well may not say these phrases to each other.
6. Phrase 10 is followed by a sentence or clause with the correct information

https://www.ihbristol.com/useful-englis ... dy-wrong-1
Last edited by char101 on Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Don't try to make people communicate the way you do. Be tolerant of their use of the word Wrong.
Stop trying to push your way of talking onto them.
Respect linguistic diversity.
char101
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by char101 »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:22 am Don't try to make people communicate the way you do. Be tolerant of their use of the word Wrong.
Stop trying to push your way of talking onto them.
Respect linguistic diversity.
I don't think you are being tolerant to the way I express my linguistic diversity.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
char101 wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:24 am
JamesTheGiant wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:22 am Don't try to make people communicate the way you do. Be tolerant of their use of the word Wrong.
Stop trying to push your way of talking onto them.
Respect linguistic diversity.
I don't think you are being tolerant to the way I express my linguistic diversity.
It does sound though like you are one telling people how they should talk, whereas James isn't doing that...

It's probably timely to note that, as per ToS4...
Speech and actions are moderated strictly and impartially according to the standards defined in the Terms of Service - not to the standard of Sutta, Vinaya, personal preference, nor any other code and/or standard of conduct.
So, to be clear, moderators won't play any role in enforcing that others' speech matches your proclivities.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"It is natural that one who knows and sees things as they really are is disenchanted and dispassionate." (AN 10.2)

"Overcome the liar by truth." (Dhp 223)
char101
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by char101 »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:35 am It does sound though like you are one telling people how they should talk, whereas James isn't doing that...
How is it that a suggestion become telling other people how they should talk, not to mention I wrote it in its own thread?
whereas James isn't doing that...
I am not a native speaker but I'm pretty sure he has been doing exactly that to me.
So, to be clear, moderators won't play any role in enforcing that others' speech matches your proclivities.
And I also never asked for that.
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Alīno
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by Alīno »

"You are wrong" - suggest that "Iam right, and I know it"
"I desagree" - suggest that "my opinion is different from yours, but Iam aware that it's just my subjective opinion"

As it is very difficult to know for 100% your own, or someone else, gedree of penetration in Dhamma. And as all is uncertain, I think that it's Dhammicly better to say : i disagree, rather you a wrong. Why? Because it put the light on the uncertainity, it make oneself humble about Dhamma, it avoid direct conflict and all unwholesome states of mind that follow all conflicts...

Imho
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
char101
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by char101 »

Alīno wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 12:24 pm "You are wrong" - suggest that "Iam right, and I know it"
"I desagree" - suggest that "my opinion is different from yours, but Iam aware that it's just my subjective opinion"

As it is very difficult to know for 100% your own, or someone else, gedree of penetration in Dhamma. And as all is uncertain, I think that it's Dhammicly better to say : i disagree, rather you a wrong. Why? Because it put the light on the uncertainity, it make oneself humble about Dhamma, it avoid direct conflict and all unwholesome states of mind that follow all conflicts...

Imho
I agree. There is a difference about knowing that what other say is wrong vs thinking that it is wrong, the latter being the very definition of disagreeing. Also disagreeing is more polite than blatantly calling other people opinion wrong. A bit of politeness goes a long way in maintaining a healthy discussion.
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Alīno
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by Alīno »

But...

While some one say us : "you are wrong!" And it hurt us, we should understand that we take our knowledge to seriously and there is self-identification with that knowledge, that's why we are hurt and feel pain.
It hurts only in places where there is attachment, so we should investigate : Why iam hurt by this? Where is iam attached? Why this attachment provides pleasant feeling to me? Why it is pleasant? Why it feeds my identity? Why iam attached to that identity? How I can detach from it?

So when we feel hurt by someone's disagreement or frontal attack - there is a matter for investigation. And maybe we could say "thank You!" To that person who tuched the point where it hurts, so we can progress on the path...

It's hard, but we can train our mind in way to investigate each time when it hurts. When there is no dukkha there is nothing to investigate...
Ajahn Nanadassano (before ordaining) : Venerable Ajahn, what is the bigest error that buddhist do in their practice?
Ajahn Jayasaro : They stop practicing ...
binocular
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Re: Wrong vs disagree

Post by binocular »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 9:46 amTo call other people wrong is a natural part of human behavior, and has no connection to claims of enlightenment.
Why claim that someone else is wrong, unless one believes one is right?

And yes, in the context of Buddhism, that implies assuming oneself to be enlightened.

JamesTheGiant wrote: Thu Nov 21, 2019 10:22 amRespect linguistic diversity.
It's not "linguistic diversity". It's power games.
If you can't build with them, don't chill with them.
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