Poe's Law - Defense

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Manopubbangama
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Poe's Law - Defense

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue May 28, 2019 6:33 pm

There are many blatantly false Christian websites on the internet such as "Landoverbaptist Church".

The jest of this website is to impugn Christianity via the subtle knavery of what is called Poe's Law - the fact that it is hard to differentiate a true Christian from an atheist imitator.

I think DhammaWheel should attempt to divert such inevitable trolls who bring harm to the forum, lest Buddhists come to the conclusion that the forum is, indeed, a living example of Poe's Law. Were said trolls to succeed, we would become, essentially a mockery - nothing but toilet scribbles on the internet promoting wrong view.

A few examples, imo, of Poe's Law we could get rid of in order to thwart said attempt of atheist mockery would be the following:

Not promote guys who charge money for teaching - the Buddha only received a fee one time, to my knowledge, and only in order to please the giver; he was pretty much an open source, FOSS Dhamma shop. Buddhist Sanghas today, also work on the basis of dana, yet there exist western "Buddhists" who charge their students rather high fees. This needs to be called out, especially since these privileged men lived in Asia as tourists, essentially, receiving the alms for free of Buddhists who were often times hungry themselves, them and their children.

Not promote incredibly obvious wrong views such as heterodox teachers who promote atheism, socialism, and other adhammic 20th century heresies.

Have a bit of humility - while anyone here can blast the Buddha, the Dhamma the Sangha why is it heresy only to criticize an internet forum? What is sacred, exactly?

Not promote absurd ideas such as that one can pick and choose any part of the Tipitika and call it "authentic" according to momentary, emotive whims and bash the rest without legitimate, holistic criteria.

Not promote perverted sexualities while claiming that Theravada is too "frigid" and "conservative" to "really be as Buddhist as me."

Not promote mentally-ill suicidal people's ideology - the mentally ill need treatment, not followers. Especially since their claim to being Aryans are directly contradicted by the Buddha Dhamma. Harold Musson comes to mind.

Again, to reiterate - running the risk of looking like foolish pseudo-intellectuals if we do not stand up to the atheist slanderers, if we truly ARE Buddhists, we know that promoting wrong view creates much dismerit for us for a huge time to come, therefore it is of the utmost importance to hold up standards that would bring us into alignment with what we would call "Theravada."

There are tens of millions of REAL Theravadans, including monks who have given their lives to the Dhamma - we could find people to lead us who have imbibed the dhamma since child birth to lead us towards the correct path instead of making it up as we go, all the while appropriating the lable of "Theravada" in order to appease our own egos.

Ultimately overt deception and subtle self-deception lead exactly to the same place, just as murder and suicide are ultimately the same thing for those who are not arahants.

binocular
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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by binocular » Tue May 28, 2019 7:13 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:33 pm
A few examples, imo, of Poe's Law we could get rid of in order to thwart said attempt of atheist mockery would be the following:
Can you list three examples of such "atheist mockery" of Buddhism that have already happened?


While I know some examples of people parodying Christianity, I've never seen any elaborate parodies (!) of Buddhism. Buddhism, in whatever form, doesn't seem to ruffle enough feathers for someone to parody it, other than perhaps in brief YT videos.


The things you criticize aren't parodies, though. They are simply examples of people being imperfect. For example, there are people who call themselves Buddhists and who charge for teaching the Dhamma. That's not a parody of Buddhism, unless they do it specifically with the intent to "imitate, make fun of, or comment on" Buddhism. It's not clear that such an intention can be proven; I'm not sure they have it.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by binocular » Tue May 28, 2019 7:15 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:33 pm
I think DhammaWheel should attempt to divert such inevitable trolls who bring harm to the forum, lest Buddhists come to the conclusion that the forum is, indeed, a living example of Poe's Law. Were said trolls to succeed, we would become, essentially a mockery - nothing but toilet scribbles on the internet promoting wrong view.
A recent exchange comes to mind:
mikenz66 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 8:08 pm
binocular wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 9:50 am
mikenz66 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 9:16 am
There is not one correct approach for every person or every stage of development. It depends on the individual.
This just doesn't work in the real world.
People are generally not that tolerant, not so full of understanding to allow for that kind of individualism. People generally want uniformity, conformity, and they exert pressure toward those goals.
Depends on which real world you live in... :thinking:

:heart:
Mike
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue May 28, 2019 8:54 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 7:15 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:33 pm
I think DhammaWheel should attempt to divert such inevitable trolls who bring harm to the forum, lest Buddhists come to the conclusion that the forum is, indeed, a living example of Poe's Law. Were said trolls to succeed, we would become, essentially a mockery - nothing but toilet scribbles on the internet promoting wrong view.
A recent exchange comes to mind:
mikenz66 wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 8:08 pm
binocular wrote:
Thu May 09, 2019 9:50 am

This just doesn't work in the real world.
People are generally not that tolerant, not so full of understanding to allow for that kind of individualism. People generally want uniformity, conformity, and they exert pressure toward those goals.
Depends on which real world you live in... :thinking:

:heart:
Mike
I would need clarification if that quote is about cultural relativism or the perverted perception of us seeing the dhammas through our own like/dislike attachment spectrum.

Either way, a Theravadan believes in Paramatthas, which are ultimate realities, and therefore, when one experiences this, and are part of the Ariyan Sangha, there is not much room for wrong view.
The things you criticize aren't parodies, though. They are simply examples of people being imperfect. For example, there are people who call themselves Buddhists and who charge for teaching the Dhamma. That's not a parody of Buddhism, unless they do it specifically with the intent to "imitate, make fun of, or comment on" Buddhism. It's not clear that such an intention can be proven; I'm not sure they have it.
If Buddhism were a humorous institution, and there were no long term consequences to wrong view, than perhaps there would be room for this, but it is not so: the Sangha is not a democratic, egalitarian instutution and if you read more about wrong view and its consequences, it may make sense as to why.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by JamesTheGiant » Tue May 28, 2019 9:07 pm

The moderators already do a fine job, and this proposal would have a very negative outcome.
You'd limit participation to so-called "Real Buddhists" who are probably about 2% of members. Allowable posts and topics would fall drastically.
Theravada is a broad school and there's room for many diverse views within it.

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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by Sam Vara » Tue May 28, 2019 9:13 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:33 pm

I think DhammaWheel should attempt to divert such inevitable trolls who bring harm to the forum, lest Buddhists come to the conclusion that the forum is, indeed, a living example of Poe's Law.
Be careful what you wish for...

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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by binocular » Tue May 28, 2019 9:19 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:54 pm
Either way, a Theravadan believes in Paramatthas, which are ultimate realities, and therefore, when one experiences this, and are part of the Ariyan Sangha, there is not much room for wrong view.
I keep saying this forum should be open for posting only to people who have attained stream-entry or higher -- but noone takes my suggestion seriously ...
If Buddhism were a humorous institution, and there were no long term consequences to wrong view, than perhaps there would be room for this, but it is not so: the Sangha is not a democratic, egalitarian instutution and if you read more about wrong view and its consequences, it may make sense as to why.
Of course. In Roman Catholicism, they have a centralized system of highest authority, the papacy. Something similar should be established in Theravada. No winky.
So far, many people have maintained that keeping to the teachings of the Buddha suffices and no actual authoritative institution is necessary. But that hasn't worked so well, given the proliferation of schools, lineages, a variety of teachings, all quite different, but all considering themselves "Buddhist".
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue May 28, 2019 9:22 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:19 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 8:54 pm
Either way, a Theravadan believes in Paramatthas, which are ultimate realities, and therefore, when one experiences this, and are part of the Ariyan Sangha, there is not much room for wrong view.
I keep saying this forum should be open for posting only to people who have attained stream-entry or higher -- but noone takes my suggestion seriously ...

There are hundreds of thousands of Buddhists monks in the world already.

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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue May 28, 2019 9:24 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:13 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:33 pm

I think DhammaWheel should attempt to divert such inevitable trolls who bring harm to the forum, lest Buddhists come to the conclusion that the forum is, indeed, a living example of Poe's Law.
Be careful what you wish for...
Could you elaborate please?

I'm asking because while many could assume this is a cowardly, passive-aggressive ad-hominum, I have faith that you are capable of adding more than that.
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Tue May 28, 2019 9:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by binocular » Tue May 28, 2019 9:25 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:07 pm
You'd limit participation to so-called "Real Buddhists" who are probably about 2% of members. Allowable posts and topics would fall drastically.
What would be so wrong with that?
It would then in fact become the extremely special, exclusive club that so many want it to be anyway. The Dhamma being only for those with little dust in their eyes and all that.

It would spare many people a lot of time and grief.

Obviously, people who aren't fit for the Buddhist practice get weeded out eventually; but the problem is that this process of natural selection is rather slow. In some cases, it can take 20 years or even longer for someone to realize that they have no business being anywhere near Buddhism. Wouldn't it be better to speed things up and weed out the unfit early on?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by binocular » Tue May 28, 2019 9:29 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:22 pm
binocular wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:19 pm

I keep saying this forum should be open for posting only to people who have attained stream-entry or higher -- but noone takes my suggestion seriously ...
There are hundreds of thousands of Buddhists monks in the world already.
Your point being ...?
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by DNS » Tue May 28, 2019 9:30 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:07 pm
The moderators already do a fine job, and this proposal would have a very negative outcome.
You'd limit participation to so-called "Real Buddhists" who are probably about 2% of members. Allowable posts and topics would fall drastically.
Theravada is a broad school and there's room for many diverse views within it.
:thumbsup: Thanks.

Anyway, what the OP is referring to has already been tried, it lasted only about a month. See:
https://www.dhammaboard.co/

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Manopubbangama
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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue May 28, 2019 9:31 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:29 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:22 pm
binocular wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:19 pm

I keep saying this forum should be open for posting only to people who have attained stream-entry or higher -- but noone takes my suggestion seriously ...
There are hundreds of thousands of Buddhists monks in the world already.
Your point being ...?
Buddhist monks are capable teachers. They have bit the apple and therefore know the taste of the apple, instead of looking at pictures of an apple on the internet and arguing with others what the taste of an apple is like.

To create a lifestyle around the later is strictly NOT dhamma, and the worst part about it is that it not only makes the participants suffer more; it draws in innocent victims who may believe that such a crabs-in-pot, cultural relativist culture is "Buddhism."
Last edited by Manopubbangama on Tue May 28, 2019 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by Sam Vara » Tue May 28, 2019 9:38 pm

Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:24 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:13 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 6:33 pm

I think DhammaWheel should attempt to divert such inevitable trolls who bring harm to the forum, lest Buddhists come to the conclusion that the forum is, indeed, a living example of Poe's Law.
Be careful what you wish for...
Could you elaborate please?

I'm asking because while many could assume this is a cowardly, passive-aggressive ad-hominum, I have faith that you are capable of adding more than that.
Sure. I mean that if you were successful in instigating a policy to eradicate trolls from this forum, you might fall foul of it yourself.

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Re: Poe's Law - Defense

Post by Manopubbangama » Tue May 28, 2019 9:40 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:38 pm
Manopubbangama wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:24 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Tue May 28, 2019 9:13 pm


Be careful what you wish for...
Could you elaborate please?

I'm asking because while many could assume this is a cowardly, passive-aggressive ad-hominum, I have faith that you are capable of adding more than that.
Sure. I mean that if you were successful in instigating a policy to eradicate trolls from this forum, you might fall foul of it yourself.
As someone who has submitted myself to the discipline of real Buddhist monks, I welcome said discipline from my spiritual superiors. I hope everyone who calls themselves a Buddhist would.

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