Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

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rightviewftw
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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:18 pm

DNS wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:29 pm
As I look at the Waharaka thread, I see numerous people challenging and refuting Waharaka's and Lal's views. And that is fine. Why censor their views? Allow it to stand in the marketplace of ideas and have it put for challenge, which is what happened.

If we start censoring what is true Dhamma and what is not, who decides? Obviously, there are some limits, to use an extreme example if there was someone who said that the Buddha prophesized the coming of Christ and is actually a Christian who advises us to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Now that would be going too far, but for just a different interpretation of the Suttas and a different account of anatta? Nah, that can withstand the marketplace of ideas and be put up for debate and challenge.
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Oct 28, 2018 6:39 pm
I know people who would claim that (say) Nanavira and Ajahn Chah are not Theravada and would close threads relating to them, too...
Yes, exactly and if we banned Ven. Waharaka's ideas, a Theravadin monk, do we also ban Ven. Thanissaro?

For those that want a more strict, hard-core Theravada only where dissenting opinions against anything in the Tipitaka, Commentaries and Abhidhamma are not allowed, there is the Classical Theravada sub-forum.

It's not that the rest of the forum is not Theravada too, but the other sub-forums simply allow more challenges, questions, and debates over certain passages, for example if they are early texts or later additions, true or not true.

Even for the early Buddhists, well before the Third Council, there were many disputes over what was the true Dhamma, the true Vinaya.
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Buddhist_councils
I think it is alright, i just think that thread is going to be mostly arguing and long past the point of an actual discussion.

However what about the Taoist who evangelizes this forum with "Nibbana is a soul which takes up another body after death" and calls people who disagree annihilationists? I think that is beyond reasonable and if we literally wait for someone who says that the Buddha prophesized the coming of Christ and is actually a Christian who advises us to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, that is just setting the bar unreasonably high.

I think the Taoist is way out of line and he is openly Taoist claiming that the Buddha taught that Nibbana is an Everlasting Soul which takes up a Body, is very quarrelsome too.
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"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by DNS » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:25 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 5:18 pm
However what about the Taoist who evangelizes this forum with "Nibbana is a soul which takes up another body after death" and calls people who disagree annihilationists? I think that is beyond reasonable and if we literally wait for someone who says that the Buddha prophesized the coming of Christ and is actually a Christian who advises us to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, that is just setting the bar unreasonably high.
I think the Taoist is way out of line and he is openly Taoist claiming that the Buddha taught that Nibbana is an Everlasting Soul which takes up a Body, is very quarrelsome too.
The Christ example is an extreme one just to show that there is a bar, not that it is necessarily raised that high. I don't want to give specifics as to where the bar is, as it is determined on a case by case basis and also some might deliberately fly just under the bar, so as not to have their posts removed.

Image

Best rest assured, the bar is not too high.

Posts like the one you referred to are on our radar and admittedly push the limits of the bar and we are watching those.

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:38 pm

DNS wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 7:25 pm
Best rest assured, the bar is not too high.

Posts like the one you referred to are on our radar and admittedly push the limits of the bar and we are watching those.
It is good that you have a radar. I also don't want to bar anyone from participation and when i say ban heretics i don't mean permanent bans. I've been banned plenty of times and it is really not that bad, eventually i learned the ToS and how people react.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
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Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by Trekmentor » Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:51 am

DNS wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:29 pm
As I look at the Waharaka thread, I see numerous people challenging and refuting Waharaka's and Lal's views. And that is fine. Why censor their views? Allow it to stand in the marketplace of ideas and have it put for challenge, which is what happened.
Why censor their views? Because of the deceitful practices used by them while spreading foolishness in the name of Lord Buddha's teachings.

Think of a thief who was seen stealing. When asked, he constantly refuses stealing. Yet the evidence is there. Say he also blames others for accusing him. We have a case like that.
DNS wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:29 pm
If we start censoring what is true Dhamma and what is not, who decides?
Those who know what true Dhamma is.
DNS wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:29 pm
Obviously, there are some limits, to use an extreme example if there was someone who said that the Buddha prophesized the coming of Christ and is actually a Christian who advises us to accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior. Now that would be going too far, but for just a different interpretation of the Suttas and a different account of anatta? Nah, that can withstand the marketplace of ideas and be put up for debate and challenge.
Walasmulle Abhaya, another fool who is a prominent follower of the dead novice monk Waharaka Abhayarathanalankara equates Tipitaka to Bible:



So what's your take? Is this not an "extreme example"? Is this not "going too far"? We have a problem here that needs action than wait in passive mode.
DNS wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:29 pm
Yes, exactly and if we banned Ven. Waharaka's ideas, a Theravadin monk, do we also ban Ven. Thanissaro?
I don't know about Ven. Thanissaro. So I have no comments about him at this moment. Popularity of a person shouldn't be taken as an indication of the correctness of what is said by that person.
DNS wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:29 pm
Even for the early Buddhists, well before the Third Council, there were many disputes over what was the true Dhamma, the true Vinaya.
https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Buddhist_councils
The Councils were held - than not. Why? That's because Lord Buddha's followers act as per the wishes of Lord Buddha. They are not dumb, not a group of passive observers, and they do not tolerate meddling with Lord Buddha's teachings.
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 am

Trekmentor wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:51 am
DNS wrote:
Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:29 pm
If we start censoring what is true Dhamma and what is not, who decides?
Those who know what true Dhamma is.
And how do we know who knows what the true Dhamma is?

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:56 am

Trekmentor wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 3:51 am
...
The thing is that only the Ariya can tell wrong view from right view, a puttujhana can't tell what is right view, so the puttujhana will accuse even the Ariya Sangha of holding wrong view. The Buddha was accused of being annihilationist, does it mean that he was annihilationist? Clearly not.

Ariya is outnumbered 5:1, 10:1, 100:1 or is it 1000:1 or more? Of course they shine with wisdom among the rubbish heap of puttujhana but people have a hard time telling a true smart person from a learned moron.

It would be easy to ask Ariya what should we do? The problem is that they can't be easily identified. One would have to carefully consider their teachings and observe them over long time in regards to qualities of greed, anger and delusion before placing faith in them. Just not practically possible.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by Trekmentor » Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:11 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 am
And how do we know who knows what the true Dhamma is?
By comparing what Lord Buddha had said with what others say.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:56 am
The thing is that only the Ariya can tell wrong view from right view, a puttujhana can't tell what is right view, so the puttujhana will accuse even the Ariya Sangha of holding wrong view. The Buddha was accused of being annihilationist, does it mean that he was annihilationist? Clearly not.
That doesn't apply to everything. Also it is not impossible even for an Arya to say certain things or hold to certain views that are inconsistent with what Lord Buddha had said. There are certain wrong views that an Arya would never hold to as well. There is such difference.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:56 am
Ariya is outnumbered 5:1, 10:1, 100:1 or is it 1000:1 or more? Of course they shine with wisdom among the rubbish heap of puttujhana but people have a hard time telling a true smart person from a learned moron.
Perhaps about 10 Aryas for the entire world population of about 7.7 billion people at present. Could be less than that. Could be a bit more than that too. But no way it could be a value like 1000:1.
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:56 am
It would be easy to ask Ariya what should we do? The problem is that they can't be easily identified. One would have to carefully consider their teachings and observe them over long time in regards to qualities of greed, anger and delusion before placing faith in them. Just not practically possible.
Not all Arya persons have the skill to correctly determine the Arya status of others. Some of them have the ability to do so, some of them do not. It is a specialized skill. Without that skill, reasonable guessing can be done. But that would be guessing and not exact.

With respect to observing the qualities of another person and making judgements, observing for a long time is surely needed. But the observer too needs to be a wise person. Otherwise, no amount of observing would help.

What is possible to do? Read a lot of Lord Buddha's teachings. Keep them remembered. Analyse extensively. Compare what others say.
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:34 pm

Trekmentor wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:11 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 am
And how do we know who knows what the true Dhamma is?
By comparing what Lord Buddha had said with what others say.
The issue with Waharaka is that people are making different claims about what the Lord Buddha actually said, and what he meant when he said it. Unfortunately, there is no way of checking with the Buddha so as to verify such claims.

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by Coëmgenu » Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:20 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:34 pm
Trekmentor wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:11 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 am
And how do we know who knows what the true Dhamma is?
By comparing what Lord Buddha had said with what others say.
The issue with Waharaka is that people are making different claims about what the Lord Buddha actually said, and what he meant when he said it. Unfortunately, there is no way of checking with the Buddha so as to verify such claims.
That strikes me as a little bit hopelessly naïve. It is easy to fact-check their beliefs.

You have two dispensations of Christianity. One thinks you have to have faith in God to go to heaven, the other dispensation says you need faith in Eve, the Great Mother, because "hEaVEn" has this absurd etymology based on how 'heaven' is pronounced more like "Eve" in their dialect, the beginning H and ending N having dropped off.

It is then said that that is how the word has always been pronounced, and that this reading is the secret esoteric truth that the wicked mainstream Church hierarchy has hid for 2000 years.

It's the same situation.
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by DNS » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:28 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:20 pm
It is easy to fact-check their beliefs.
Sometimes, but not always. There are the acinteyya (imponderables). There is the nature of nibbana and parinibbana and many others which have different interpretations. What might look straight-forward to you or us, might not be in the views of many others.

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:35 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:20 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:34 pm
Trekmentor wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:11 pm


By comparing what Lord Buddha had said with what others say.
The issue with Waharaka is that people are making different claims about what the Lord Buddha actually said, and what he meant when he said it. Unfortunately, there is no way of checking with the Buddha so as to verify such claims.
That strikes me as a little bit hopelessly naïve. It is easy to fact-check their beliefs.

You have two dispensations of Christianity. One thinks you have to have faith in God to go to heaven, the other dispensation says you need faith in Eve, the Great Mother, because "hEaVEn" has this absurd etymology based on how 'heaven' is pronounced more like "Eve" in their dialect, the beginning H and ending N having dropped off.

It is then said that that is how the word has always been pronounced, and that this reading is the secret esoteric truth that the wicked mainstream Church hierarchy has hid for 2000 years.

It's the same situation.
I think there are parallels, but it's not the "same situation". As you will see in the thread, many people, yourself and myself included, have challenged the validity of some of the interpretations we are offered. This is a matter of ongoing interpretation, and I see the picture as being too nuanced to warrant closing a thread.

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by StormBorn » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:40 pm

Trekmentor wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:11 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:56 am
Ariya is outnumbered 5:1, 10:1, 100:1 or is it 1000:1 or more? Of course they shine with wisdom among the rubbish heap of puttujhana but people have a hard time telling a true smart person from a learned moron.
Perhaps about 10 Aryas for the entire world population of about 7.7 billion people at present. Could be less than that. Could be a bit more than that too. But no way it could be a value like 1000:1.
More scary: I asked the venerable that I respect most the same question: "How many Ariyas do you think out there?" The reply came with a smile: "Contrary to the number of claims out there. I'd say you don't need two hands to count them!" What the venerable meant was there may be maximum five or less Ariyas in the world.

I personally consider this venerable as an Ariya. Whenever I mentioned about someone who is claiming to be an Ariya, his views, and behaviors, etc. this venerable so far was able to point to me why that claim is wrong by pointing the faults, explaining them, and giving reference from sutta even. He said he hadn't come across an Ariya, but he strongly believes the possibility of at least a one or two. I suspect that positive attitude regarding the possibility is due to his own inner confidence of seeing the Dhamma. He said, it's very easy to debunk a fake Ariya when you know what to look for but it will be very difficult to prove a genuine Ariya as an Ariya...

When I told him about Waharaka and his followers who claim themselves as Ariyas, his answer was: "Too obvious, isn't it?" :rofl:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 2:20 pm
That strikes me as a little bit hopelessly naïve. It is easy to fact-check their beliefs.
Indeed. Letting a person astray, who repeatedly declare his wrong views (some are fundamentally very serious) and mock those who disagree is indeed naïve. I'd suggest at least a warning color on the username, so at least raise awareness in the newcomers or those who are less knowledgeable in Dhamma. Otherwise, at some point it will be equal to knowingly support the spread of adhamma. Also, the time & effort of the members repeatedly wasted correcting and pointing to the wrong views for the sake of others.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by rightviewftw » Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:54 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 4:40 pm
More scary: I asked the venerable that I respect most the same question: "How many Ariyas do you think out there?" The reply came with a smile: "Contrary to the number of claims out there. I'd say you don't need two hands to count them!" What the venerable meant was there may be maximum five or less Ariyas in the world.
Unfortunately i agree with his estimation but i'd include the Dhamma and Faith followers as well, so 5-10 is a good estimation imo. If i were to count the suspects i got 10 and i give people benefit of the doubt here.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by Trekmentor » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:21 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:34 pm
Trekmentor wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 12:11 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 8:52 am
And how do we know who knows what the true Dhamma is?
By comparing what Lord Buddha had said with what others say.
The issue with Waharaka is that people are making different claims about what the Lord Buddha actually said, and what he meant when he said it.
When two sides hold opposite views, both sides cannot be correct at the same time. So if you are not sure about who is correct, it is best that you listen to both sides and investigate. It is best to leave the problem to be tackled by those who can.

Said that, what is the present status? By now, foolishness of Waharaka faction has been demonstrated. Some of those monks have been expelled from their bhikkhu chapters. Some have been subjected to other disciplinary actions. Having not been able to demonstrate the correctness of what they say, they have now resorted to blame others and mislead others in other ways. For example, Waharaka faction blames others for destroying the image of bhikkhus, they claim others are jealous of them, they say others should look after their own progress without spending time to investigate others and so on. By doing so, they attract more trouble and ruin themselves.
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 1:34 pm
Unfortunately, there is no way of checking with the Buddha so as to verify such claims.
Lord Buddha hadn't said that what others say should be verified with him like that. Instead, he had given instructions as to what to do when he is not present.
"Micchādiṭṭhiṃ micchādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sammādiṭṭhiṃ sammādiṭṭhīti pajānāti. Sāssa hoti sammādiṭṭhi."

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Re: Consider closing the Waharaka Thread

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:53 pm

Trekmentor wrote:
Sun Nov 18, 2018 5:21 pm

When two sides hold opposite views, both sides cannot be correct at the same time. So if you are not sure about who is correct, it is best that you listen to both sides and investigate. It is best to leave the problem to be tackled by those who can.
Exactly. That's why the Waharaka thread does not need to be closed. If wrong views are being presented, then it is best for all concerned that they are subjected to open debate and rebuttal, rather than suppression.

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