No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

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binocular
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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by binocular » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:00 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:39 pm
This is a discussion forum, not a real-life dhamma group.
So this is a Buddhist venue which doesn't have to operate by dhammic principles?
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Pseudobabble
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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by Pseudobabble » Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:26 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:00 pm
mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jul 18, 2018 7:39 pm
This is a discussion forum, not a real-life dhamma group.
So this is a Buddhist venue which doesn't have to operate by dhammic principles?
I'm pretty sure that is de jure true (the ToS), de facto true (people's behaviour), and already long established.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


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Sam Vara
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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:55 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:00 pm
So this is a Buddhist venue which doesn't have to operate by dhammic principles?
Nothing has to operate by dhammic principles. People can choose to operate by dhammic principles by avoiding defilements of thought and speech, and the ToS and culture of Dhamma Wheel can facilitate that.

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mikenz66
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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jul 19, 2018 7:38 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 6:55 pm
binocular wrote:
Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:00 pm
So this is a Buddhist venue which doesn't have to operate by dhammic principles?
Nothing has to operate by dhammic principles. People can choose to operate by dhammic principles by avoiding defilements of thought and speech, and the ToS and culture of Dhamma Wheel can facilitate that.
Since the "operation" is posts by members, it's up to them to operate on Dhammic principles. This can be encouraged, but is impossible to enforce.

Real-life activity is very different, particularly in cases where there is a teacher (or teachers) who participants have come to learn from (rather than a group of peers). Here we do, of course, have some participants who are very knowledgeable, and that others learn from, but it's a discussion not a teacher-student relationship.

Unfortunately, on forums like this some members behave as if they would like to be in a teacher-student relationship with other participants. That, of course, can come across as extremely irritating, since no-one here has "signed up" as a student...

:heart:
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rightviewftw
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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:41 pm

binocular wrote:
Tue Jul 17, 2018 7:39 pm
Greetings.

From the ToS:
2. Speech

Any subject matter that may be off-topic or is intended to cause disruption or harm may be removed without notice. This includes, but is not restricted to:
/.../
e. Disruptive meta-discussion (i.e. discussion about discussion, including in-topic complaints about the existence of discussions that don't suit your preferences)
Ruling out meta-discussion, including ruling out arguing against the person, can open the door widely to propaganda and to irresponsible behavior, and to everything that comes with them.

If no meta-discussion is allowed, then people can promote views they don't hold, criticize others for not holding those views -- and nothing can be done against that according to the ToS.
1. Meta discussion is allowed

2. One can often make a new thread to discuss the disruptive stuff and if one can't then the discussion is probably unwanted on the board

3. I am pretty sure someone could make a thread about a member's views or criticize the manner of one's posting within the ToS. As long as they avoid calling for a ban in the OP and make it look serious. They could definitely point out inconsistencies, hypocrisy, be passive-aggressive and get away with various kinds of insults and ad-hominem attacks and i am not even talking about ad-hominem or insults by proxy but direct insults and nasty remarks.

The moderators have no way to completely protect one from insults and nasty language. It is my impression that a good part of insults definitely go unmoderated let alone disruptive meta-discussion. Quite often neither disruptive meta nor insults will get removed unless it gets completely out of hand or is reported and neither getting out of hand nor reporting guarantees removal.

There are also venues like the chat which can be utilized to speak one's mind and if all else fails one can make generalizations and criticize groups of people instead of naming the individuals.

If people present their controversial views as a rule those views will be challenged and whether the OP actually holds the view or not is not necessarily important. In matters of controversy arguing both sides can be useful in the search for truth.

I don't think this is a problem at all.

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Bundokji
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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by Bundokji » Fri Jul 20, 2018 1:42 am

The aim of any set of rules is not to be perfect, but to provide a common framework/binding system to those who happened to be members of the group.

When a set of rules is designed, preventing what is known as "slippery slope" is usually kept in mind. A good law in my opinion, puts common and long term interest of the group as well as practicality first and above individual cases. This is the reasoning/logic behind having a law/ToR as i understand it.
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by DNS » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:28 am

As far as I understand it, a statement may be an acceptable ad hominem; if it is against another person's character and motive and it is directly related to the issue at hand. For example, a person calling out someone opposed to alcohol consumption but then noting that this same person regularly drinks alcohol (hypocrisy). This being a forum, would be difficult to prove other than digging through some past posts where the person may have admitted to enjoy getting drunk on occasion, etc.

Most ad homs are not that and simply attack the person, not raising any hypocrisy issues and then it becomes character-assassination, shooting the messenger, etc.

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Bundokji
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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by Bundokji » Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:46 am

Also highlighting people's hypocrisy can be in itself a form of hypocrisy. Who of us have never preached something that they did not practice at some point of his/her life?
And the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus, saying: "Behold now, bhikkhus, I exhort you: All compounded things are subject to vanish. Strive with earnestness!"

This was the last word of the Tathagata.

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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by Dinsdale » Sat Jul 21, 2018 8:40 am

My main concern is that we seem to have been having a lot of off-topic posts recently.

:focus:

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binocular
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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by binocular » Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:20 pm

Bundokji wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:46 am
Also highlighting people's hypocrisy can be in itself a form of hypocrisy. Who of us have never preached something that they did not practice at some point of his/her life?
It's not that. It's when people in positions of power enforce standards that they themselves do not live up to. Basically, a decadent elite who gets to call the shots, while the underlings are supposed to be good and docile.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Aloka
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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by Aloka » Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:17 am

binocular wrote:
Sat Jul 21, 2018 2:20 pm
Bundokji wrote:
Fri Jul 20, 2018 2:46 am
Also highlighting people's hypocrisy can be in itself a form of hypocrisy. Who of us have never preached something that they did not practice at some point of his/her life?
It's not that. It's when people in positions of power enforce standards that they themselves do not live up to. Basically, a decadent elite who gets to call the shots, while the underlings are supposed to be good and docile.

Its worth remembering that this is a free forum and nobody is asking for donations or membership fees.

There also have to be rules of one kind or another in Internet forums and moderators are just ordinary human beings like everyone else - and they often put in a lot of time and effort in order to keep things running. If there aren't any rules, Buddhist forums can end up really crazy, wild places, like one or two that used to exist when I first started looking at internet Buddhism myself.

Have you considered creating a new Buddhist internet forum, or blog yourself, which would be closer to your own requirements, binocular?


:anjali:

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binocular
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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by binocular » Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:59 pm

Aloka wrote:
Sun Jul 22, 2018 9:17 am
Its worth remembering that this is a free forum and nobody is asking for donations or membership fees.

There also have to be rules of one kind or another in Internet forums and moderators are just ordinary human beings like everyone else - and they often put in a lot of time and effort in order to keep things running. If there aren't any rules, Buddhist forums can end up really crazy, wild places, like one or two that used to exist when I first started looking at internet Buddhism myself.

Have you considered creating a new Buddhist internet forum, or blog yourself, which would be closer to your own requirements, binocular?
No, I'm talking about bigger things. About the principles by which actual Buddhists actually live, not the ones they officially espouse. Because it's the ones by which they actually live that actually matter.


Happy Hunger Games! And may the odds be ever in your favor.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Aloka
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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by Aloka » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:32 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:59 pm
No, I'm talking about bigger things. About the principles by which actual Buddhists actually live, not the ones they officially espouse. Because it's the ones by which they actually live that actually matter.
How can we know for sure how people who post in internet forums actually live in "meat space" ?

Happy Hunger Games! And may the odds be ever in your favor.
Sorry, but I've never read or watched "The Hunger Games".

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binocular
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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by binocular » Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:46 pm

Aloka wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 4:32 pm
binocular wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:59 pm
No, I'm talking about bigger things. About the principles by which actual Buddhists actually live, not the ones they officially espouse. Because it's the ones by which they actually live that actually matter.
How can we know for sure how people who post in internet forums actually live in "meat space" ?
The distinction I'm talking about isn't about online vs. RL. It's the distinction between what people actually believe and live by vs. what they proclaim to believe and live by. The two can be opposite.

Sorry, but I've never read or watched "The Hunger Games".
As a schoolteacher, you should, to know what the kids who are entrusted to you read/watch.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Re: No meta-discussion opens the door to propaganda and irresponsible behavior

Post by dharmacorps » Mon Jul 23, 2018 5:26 pm

binocular wrote:
Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:59 pm

No, I'm talking about bigger things. About the principles by which actual Buddhists actually live, not the ones they officially espouse. Because it's the ones by which they actually live that actually matter.
You can't control other people's principals. If others act incongruent with the principals they espouse that's on them and is none of your business really. If you don't believe your needs are being met on this forum and Buddhist principals aren't being met here, then, to be consistent with your statements, shouldn't you refuse to participate here? :shrug:

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