Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:52 pm

Greetings,
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:49 pm
you are entitled to an opinion apparently and so am i. one of us is probably wrong tho.
Sure, I'm just giving context as to why things are as they are (see also my edit to my post, made after you quoted it) and not as you would rather them be.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:57 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:52 pm
Greetings,
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:49 pm
you are entitled to an opinion apparently and so am i. one of us is probably wrong tho.
Sure, I'm just giving context as to why things are as they are (see also my edit to my post, made after you quoted it) and not as you would rather them be.

Metta,
Paul. :)
when we discuss i will substantiate my position with textual authority and you will rely on raising doubt of applicability regarding my evidence.
My evidence will be regarded at worst as possibly true.
You will have no scriptural evidence of your own.
This is my prediction.

also if i put a lot of time into it i am pretty sure i could make an overwhelmingly convincing case.
Last edited by rightviewftw on Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by retrofuturist » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:00 am

Greetings,
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:57 pm
This is my prediction.
Sounds like your papanca.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:01 am

It seems to me the arguing is mostly done by a core of about 5 or 6 people. Five dedicated, argumentative, people who are convinced they have "right view", and apparently have a lot of ego to defend. :toast:

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robertk
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by robertk » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:22 am

I like the viriya of the dedicated group: so we can be appreciative of that.

:anjali:

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:46 am

robertk wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:22 am
I like the viriya of the dedicated group: so we can be appreciative of that.

:anjali:
Yes, viriya is important, but the five spiritual faculties (or seven enlightenment factors) need to be balanced. From the Visuddhimagga:
Then if the vigor faculty (viriya) is too strong, the faith faculty cannot perform its function of convincing, nor can the rest of the faculties perform their several functions. So in that case the excessive strength of the vigor faculty should be reduced by cultivating (the enlightenment factors of) tranquillity, concentration and equanimity. So, too, with the other factors, for it should be understood that when any one of them is too strong the others cannot perform their several functions.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... html#ch2.5
For those who prefer to rely on the suttas:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=14239#p209667
https://suttacentral.net/sn46.53
“In the same way, when the mind is restless, it’s the wrong time to develop the awakening factors of investigation of principles, energy, and rapture. Why is that? Because it’s hard to settle a restless mind with these things.

When the mind is restless, it’s the right time to develop the awakening factors of tranquility, immersion, and equanimity. Why is that? Because it’s easy to settle a restless mind with these things.

https://suttacentral.net/sn46.53/en/sujato#sc12--13
:heart:
Mike

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:01 am

dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:57 am
It is great to remind those who are faithful to be compassionate & those who are skeptical to be respectful, & ideally this would be enough, but I think it's inevitable that the former group will feel like this forum is not for them
I think this is a correct assertion. Generally speaking I see no way that the former group would continue participating under the current conditions. I think that the most educated will leave first due to not being bothered and the less educated will follow due to decrease in learning value of participation on account of absence of the first group. After the second group leaves the quality of content will be less than mediocre and even the more intelligent sceptics will start leaving...

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:30 am

Hi Dylan,
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:57 am
I request that the moderators do not simply defer to reminding us of the terms of service & find a way to proactively promote concord & harmony on this forum, whether that involves changing the terms of service or working around them. ...
I wrote a rather lengthy post recently on one of these threads about how the tone of the Forum is largely set by the participants:
viewtopic.php?p=478059

Perhaps that's not pro-active enough for you, but there are many, many, more members than moderators, and the only way the Forum will become more harmonious is if members, especially the members who post a lot, take responsibility for promoting harmony.

I already mentioned in that post that I think that mendicants such as Bhikkhu Analayo provide an excellent role model for how to disagree with others in a harmonious, non-threatening, way. Bhikkhu Analayo is not afraid to disagree with others, even those he considers his mentors, such as Bhikkhu Bodhi and Bhikkhu Nanananda, but he always does it in a kind and respectful manner. Listening to some his talks is highly recommended.

See, for example:
viewtopic.php?t=26579
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=27940&start=30#p439743

Here is a nice video interview: viewtopic.php?t=28120



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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by Saengnapha » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:21 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:00 am
Greetings,
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:57 pm
This is my prediction.
Sounds like your papanca.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Glad to see you are not allowing the inmates to take over. :clap:

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:41 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:53 pm
My definition of a devout Buddhist would be those who are Ariya including Faith-Followers, Dhamma-Follower and the higher stages. I even think that non-Ariyans are essentially unworthy of using this forum, let alone using it to corrupt the Dhamma and should therefore be very greatful.
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:39 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:33 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:30 pm


So, a nice, clear answer to the question, 'are you Ariya?' No need to be shy now.
Worry about your own attainments.
Let me rephrase. Under your own criteria, are you fit to use the forum?

Still no answer? If your own criteria were applied, would you be allowed to use the forum?

Its a really simple question, and given you're making so much noise on this matter, I don't see why you won't answer.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:19 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:41 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:53 pm
My definition of a devout Buddhist would be those who are Ariya including Faith-Followers, Dhamma-Follower and the higher stages. I even think that non-Ariyans are essentially unworthy of using this forum, let alone using it to corrupt the Dhamma and should therefore be very greatful.
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:39 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:33 pm

Worry about your own attainments.
Let me rephrase. Under your own criteria, are you fit to use the forum?

Still no answer? If your own criteria were applied, would you be allowed to use the forum?

Its a really simple question, and given you're making so much noise on this matter, I don't see why you won't answer.
Again the question you are asking is irrelevant to the discussion. Not being worthy is not the same not being allowed. Out of compassion and sympathy unworthy people should be allowed. Others have picked up on where i was coming from idk why you are having such problem. As to what regards my training you are not entitled to an answer, it is just none of your bussiness and does not concern you.

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by Pseudobabble » Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:05 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Jun 23, 2018 4:19 pm
Out of compassion and sympathy unworthy people should be allowed.
Sure. But we can leave it there, its gone on long enough.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by Mkoll » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:26 am

Regarding the OP...

There's a pattern I've noticed occurring sometimes. When people, especially young men, who are relatively new to taking the Dhamma seriously for themselves come to this forum, they are often enthusiastic. Enthusiasm is great, but on this online forum environment it can very easily slip into vehement defense of views and using views like they're bludgeons. Over time, things cool down. As their newfound identity and practice matures, they stop posting as much or entirely. They cling a little less to their views and don't get into as many heated debates and arguments. I think that's a large part of what's going on here and it's a pattern that will continue to crop up as long as this forum is here. Of course some people take longer to cool down than others...

I say that because I basically followed that pattern myself and have noticed it with some others.
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa
Namo tassa bhagavato arahato samma sambuddhassa

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:09 pm

Mkoll wrote:
Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:26 am
... especially young men, ...
Yes, it seems the biggest complainers and aggressive/argumentative people here are young guys. I can't see their gender or age, but they sure seem like young guys. Typical!

denise
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by denise » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:29 pm

Hello James the Giant....did you encounter this type of bluster and ego from other young men when you were in robes? Were there these types just let to run amok? just wondering....thanks!

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