Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

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dharmacorps
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:53 pm

It seems to me a lot of the discussion has been on expectations/assumptions of how the forum should be, and how the Terms of Service and Moderators should be different than they are, without a lot of reading of how they actually are. I think the moderators put up with a lot, especially unsolicited "suggestions" about how they do their job, which in reality, let's face it, is an incredibly difficult task which most of us forum members don't understand very well, and some don't even respect unfortunately.

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salayatananirodha
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by salayatananirodha » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:02 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:17 pm
...
What he's talking about is the eight kinds of individuals, taken as pairs.

"Just as the ocean is the abode of such mighty beings as whales, whale-eaters, and whale-eater-eaters; asuras, nagas, and gandhabbas, and there are in the ocean beings one hundred leagues long, two hundred... three hundred... four hundred... five hundred leagues long; in the same way, this Doctrine and Discipline is the abode of such mighty beings as stream-winners and those practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry; once-returners and those practicing to realize the fruit of once-returning; non-returners and those practicing to realize the fruit of non-returning; arahants and those practicing for arahantship... This is the eighth amazing and astounding fact about this Doctrine and Discipline."

— Ud 5.5
ariya sangha https://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/sangha.html
16. 'In what has the world originated?' — so said the Yakkha Hemavata, — 'with what is the world intimate? by what is the world afflicted, after having grasped at what?' (167)

17. 'In six the world has originated, O Hemavata,' — so said Bhagavat, — 'with six it is intimate, by six the world is afflicted, after having grasped at six.' (168)

- Hemavatasutta


links:
https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/index.htm
http://thaiforestwisdom.org/canonical-texts/
http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://www.dhammatalks.org/index.html

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Wizard in the Forest
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:03 pm

I'm actually grateful they allowed this discussion to progress as far as it has. It's as I said in OP, I am willing to have discussion and I said what I think the problem is. If we were compassionate and respectful these issues wouldn't have lead to so much quarreling, but here we are. I don't know what either side wants, but I know what I want: an end to the quarreling about faith and skepticism. I doubt this warrants a change in TOS, but I think it requires a discussion about how to confront these issues, and a reflection upon the board's purpose.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

dharmacorps
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:17 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:03 pm
I don't know what either side wants, but I know what I want: an end to the quarreling about faith and skepticism.
Although this seems like a reasonable request, it simply isn't realistic.

People everywhere in all circumstances quarrel about everything. Especially, this is an internet forum-- and these are rather notoriously contentious. Just because it is a forum of Buddhists doesn't mean it isn't subject to the same afflictions as the rest of samsara.

"Why is it, Mater Kaccana, that ascetics fight with ascetics?"

"It is, brahmin, because of attachment to views, adherence to views, fixation on views, addiction to views, obsession with views,holding firmly to views that ascetics fight with ascetics."

AN 2:iv,6,abridged; I 66

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rightviewftw
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:09 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:17 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:53 pm
My definition of a devout Buddhist would be those who are Ariya including Faith-Followers, Dhamma-Follower and the higher stages. I even think that non-Ariyans are essentially unworthy of using this forum, let alone using it to corrupt the Dhamma and should therefore be very greatful.
Devotion of the Noble Ones;
You ARE aware that would exclude many devoted followers of the Buddha, right? They're talking about Stream Entrants here. That would make it impossible for those who are trying to learn about Dhamma and I think it should not be so strict or stringent. This board would be very small if it only consisted of holy ones.

I do think it is better instead to leave it open, but to actually ensure that the views are representative where they need to be, and that respect and compassion is given to all practicioners and non practicioners. I point out my observation that I feel you are lacking in compassion here in many ways for those who are sincere aspirants and those who are actual practicioners that are plagued by skeptical doubt. These are serious hindrances you know.
I did not say ban the Puthujhanna, being worthy and being allowed access are two different things.

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mikenz66
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:43 pm

I posted some of this on another thread, but perhaps it's worth emphasising...

On how the Buddha admonishes others. Note that he doesn't speak if it is not beneficial, even if it is correct.
The Realized One does not utter speech that he knows to be true and substantive, but which is harmful and disliked by others.

The Realized One knows the right time to speak so as to explain what he knows to be true, substantive, and beneficial, but which is disliked by others.
https://suttacentral.net/mn58/en/sujato#8.2--8.3
Since I don't see much evidence that anyone here has the infallibility of the Buddha, I would even be careful about applying the above.

On mendicants admonishing each other:
... a mendicant who wants to accuse another should first establish five things in themselves.

What five? I will speak at the right time, not at the wrong time. I will speak truthfully, not falsely. I will speak gently, not harshly. I will speak beneficially, not harmfully. I will speak lovingly, not from secret hate. A mendicant who wants to accuse another should first establish these five things in themselves.
https://suttacentral.net/an5.167
Of course, that's advice for mendicants, not lay people, but perhaps it's OK to interpret "mendicants" here as "serious followers of Dhamma"...

And consider this:
“Mendicants, don’t get into arguments.

‘You don’t understand this teaching and training.
I understand this teaching and training.
What, you understand this teaching and training?
You’re practicing wrong. I’m practicing right.
I stay on topic, you don’t.
You said last what you should have said first.
You said first what you should have said last.
What you’ve thought so much about has been disproved.
Your doctrine is refuted.
Go on, save your doctrine!
You’re trapped; get yourself out of this—if you can!’

Why is that? Because those discussions aren’t beneficial or relevant to the fundamentals of the spiritual life. They don’t lead to disillusionment, fading away, cessation, peace, insight, awakening, and extinguishment.

https://suttacentral.net/sn56.9
It's amazing that the Buddha could see 2500 years into the future, to see the arguments that take place on this very Forum... :tongue:

:heart:
Mike

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:16 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:53 pm
My definition of a devout Buddhist would be those who are Ariya including Faith-Followers, Dhamma-Follower and the higher stages. I even think that non-Ariyans are essentially unworthy of using this forum, let alone using it to corrupt the Dhamma and should therefore be very greatful.
And are you Ariya, or not? Since that's your criterion of judgment, I guess you'll be happy to tell us where you stand?
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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rightviewftw
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:20 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:16 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:53 pm
My definition of a devout Buddhist would be those who are Ariya including Faith-Followers, Dhamma-Follower and the higher stages. I even think that non-Ariyans are essentially unworthy of using this forum, let alone using it to corrupt the Dhamma and should therefore be very greatful.
And are you Ariya, or not? Since that's your criterion of judgment, I guess you'll be happy to tell us where you stand?
My personal attainments should not matter because if i was lacking the appropriate attainments it would neither validate nor invalidate my position and if i have them it would neither validate nor invalidate my position.

What would invalidate my position is logic with or without scriptual reference. Afaik only Ariyans are worthy of using the requisites donated to the Sangha others are borrowing and are indebted.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:30 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:20 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:16 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:53 pm
My definition of a devout Buddhist would be those who are Ariya including Faith-Followers, Dhamma-Follower and the higher stages. I even think that non-Ariyans are essentially unworthy of using this forum, let alone using it to corrupt the Dhamma and should therefore be very greatful.
And are you Ariya, or not? Since that's your criterion of judgment, I guess you'll be happy to tell us where you stand?
My personal attainments should not matter because if i was lacking the appropriate attainments it would neither validate nor invalidate my position and if i have them it would neither validate nor invalidate my position.
So, a nice, clear answer to the question, 'are you Ariya?' No need to be shy now.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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rightviewftw
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:33 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:30 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:20 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:16 pm


And are you Ariya, or not? Since that's your criterion of judgment, I guess you'll be happy to tell us where you stand?
My personal attainments should not matter because if i was lacking the appropriate attainments it would neither validate nor invalidate my position and if i have them it would neither validate nor invalidate my position.
So, a nice, clear answer to the question, 'are you Ariya?' No need to be shy now.
Worry about your own attainments.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:39 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:33 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:30 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:20 pm


My personal attainments should not matter because if i was lacking the appropriate attainments it would neither validate nor invalidate my position and if i have them it would neither validate nor invalidate my position.
So, a nice, clear answer to the question, 'are you Ariya?' No need to be shy now.
Worry about your own attainments.
Let me rephrase. Under your own criteria, are you fit to use the forum?

EDIT: I noticed you snipped your original definition out of the quote. Here is it again:

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:53 pm
My definition of a devout Buddhist would be those who are Ariya including Faith-Followers, Dhamma-Follower and the higher stages. I even think that non-Ariyans are essentially unworthy of using this forum, let alone using it to corrupt the Dhamma and should therefore be very greatful.
Last edited by Pseudobabble on Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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retrofuturist
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:40 pm

Greetings,
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:33 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:30 pm
So, a nice, clear answer to the question, 'are you Ariya?' No need to be shy now.
Worry about your own attainments.
True as that might be, you're the one stating that people's attainment should have any bearing on anything here... something which is not only prejudicial, totally impractical and unenforceable, but it doesn't sit too well with ToS2f either.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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rightviewftw
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:44 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:40 pm
Greetings,
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:33 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:30 pm
So, a nice, clear answer to the question, 'are you Ariya?' No need to be shy now.
Worry about your own attainments.
True as that might be, you're the one stating that people's attainment should have any bearing on anything here... something which is not only prejudicial, not totally impractical and unenforceable.

Metta,
Paul. :)
I just mean that people should not take the gifts of Dhamma for granted, should not take what is given on account of greatness of the teacher for granted, should not feel entitled in the Dhamma, as a matter of fact people should feel indebted and cultivate the practice so that they become worthy of the requisites given on account of greatness of the teacher for the benefit of many.

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:48 pm

Greetings rightviewftw,

I think it might be more worthwhile in this situation to apply principles that the Buddha taught to laypeople, rather than principles applied to monastics and the Sangha.

This is not the Sangha, so the ways of the Sangha do not automatically apply. We operate under a Terms of Service, not a Patimokkha.

Some teachings and considerations may apply, but not all... applicability will be on a case-by-case basis.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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rightviewftw
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:49 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:48 pm
Greetings rightviewftw,

I think it might be more worthwhile in this situation to apply principles that the Buddha taught to laypeople, rather than principles applied to monastics and the Sangha.

This is not the Sangha, so the ways of the Sangha do not automatically apply.

Metta,
Paul. :)
you are entitled to an opinion apparently and so am i. one of us is probably wrong tho. if you split the thread we can discuss it.

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