Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

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dylanj
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:13 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:04 am
Greetings Dylan,
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:59 am
I don't think anyone is suggesting censorship. I think categorization is what's being suggested.
Categorization of what, topics? That will be for the OP to do, via how they structure the topic, and which sub-forum they put it in.

I've referenced this guide a few times lately but I'll post the whole thing here as it seems pertinent to the discussion.
A guide on how to get the most out of your new topics

Often discussion topics start of full of promise, but rapidly deteriorate and drift off into irrelevant off-topic discussion. This guide contains a few recommendations for you on how to reduce the likelihood of that occurring when you create new topics here at Dhamma Wheel.

Take a few moments to identify the most appropriate sub-forum for your topic

Dhamma Wheel has a variety of sub-forums, carefully defined in order to facilitate different kinds of Dhamma discussion. As part of your topic, do you want to know about people's experiences? Do you want to know what the Suttas say about a particular issue? Do you want thoughts from the full spectrum of Buddhist thought? Are you challenging orthodoxy, or do you want to know what the orthodox view is?

The answers to such questions will determine which section of the forum is most appropriate for your question. Take a few moments to familiarize yourself with the forum structure and descriptions.

Structure your comments and questions as clearly as possible

What is the point you are trying to communicate and/or what is the question you're asking? Don't be cryptic or lace your topics with insinuations about those you disagree with. The more precisely you are able to define your topic, the easier it is for people to determine what is on topic and what's not. Generally, people want to do the right thing by the original poster, so remember that your opening post may be referenced or quoted directly several times throughout the topic by other members.

The title topic should also be clear and unambiguous, so as to provide the best summary possible of what people might expect to find once they open the topic. Again, avoid being cryptic or sensationalist.

Be very clear on the parameters of the discussion

For example...

- Is this intended to be a serious and focused topic, or are you open to people having a bit of a joke, or tangential discussion along the way?

- Are there certain references that you consider either authoritative or are there sources you'd rather keep outside the scope of the discussion? Where do you want to draw the line? (e.g. Sutta, Vinaya, Abhidhamma, commentary, modern teachings, scholarship, teachings of other sects, comments from bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, personal opinion)

- Are you seeking personal advice, or do you just want people to talk about the issue independently of the fact it's your issue?

Why should I bother following these recommendations?

The clearer you are in framing your topic, the easier it is for moderators to moderate the topic in accordance with your intentions. If at any point you feel the topic is going awry, don't hesitate to report offending posts or contact a moderator to help get your topic back on track.

...and if it's not my topic?

Respect that it is someone's topic. Is the comment you're about to make a positive contribution to that topic or not?
Note that it's for the OP to define these things, and they are now even more enforceable than ever with the recently introduced provisions in ToS2i.

Metta,
Paul. :)
So I can define the topic as excluding secularists/skeptics & if they involve themselves they will be subject to moderation?
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:15 am

Greetings Wizard,
Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:05 am
Has there ever been a time when reflection on whether we're bring compassionate enough or respectful enough to another person and that it has been a bad idea?
No, but if others are being harangued and badgered into it, via the weaponized grievances of another, or via the exertion of authority, then it can be... especially if there's been no wrong-doing.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:17 am

Greetings Dylan,
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:13 am
So I can define the topic as excluding secularists/skeptics & if they involve themselves they will be subject to moderation?
You cannot exclude people, but you can exclude certain types of views.

The Classical Theravada section is a perfect example of this... you can't stop people participating there, but certain views are prohibited because they're outside the parameters of that section.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:19 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:17 am
Greetings Dylan,
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:13 am
So I can define the topic as excluding secularists/skeptics & if they involve themselves they will be subject to moderation?
You cannot exclude people, but you can exclude certain types of views.

The Classical Theravada section is a perfect example of this... you can't stop people participation, but certain views are outside the parameters of that section.

Metta,
Paul. :)
but what if we want to talk about a connection to other paths for example, yet under the assumptions of authority taken in classical theravāda

this was one of the more recent problems
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:21 am

Greetings Dylan,
dylanj wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:19 am
but what if we want to talk about a connection to other paths for example, yet under the assumptions of authority taken in classical theravāda

this was one of the more recent problems
Then frame the topic thusly, and moderators will do their best to keep people to it.

And if people don't keep on topic, report the posts... do not respond to them, as that just takes things further off-topic into meta-discussion and dispute.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by dylanj » Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:21 am

ok
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 10:49 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:12 am
Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 9:05 am
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 7:44 am
We have to be sure not to develop a "Culture of Offense", where the priority is to be fake-nice and not offend anyone, at the expense of truth, freedom, and openness. I've seen this rising up western culture in the last 10 years or so, and it's dumb.
I'm not sure what you mean by "fake nice". I hope you don't mean that being polite and being clear that one is expressing one's personal opinion, is fake-nice? I'm all for robust debate, but I don't believe robust debate is in any way enhanced by rudeness.
James is welcome to correct me if I'm off-base here, but I think he's referring to any instance where we cannot adhere to this sutta guidance...
MN 41 wrote:"There is the case where a certain person, abandoning false speech, abstains from false speech. When he has been called to a town meeting, a group meeting, a gathering of his relatives, his guild, or of the royalty, if he is asked as a witness, 'Come and tell, good man, what you know': If he doesn't know, he says, 'I don't know.' If he does know, he says, 'I know.' If he hasn't seen, he says, 'I haven't seen.' If he has seen, he says, 'I have seen.' Thus he doesn't consciously tell a lie for his own sake, for the sake of another, or for the sake of any reward. Abandoning false speech, he abstains from false speech. He speaks the truth, holds to the truth, is firm, reliable, no deceiver of the world.
... because to do so would upset someone else's personal preferences and proclivities. As I once asked in past...
retrofuturist wrote:Should we pretend we do not know what we do know in order to assuage the personal proclivities and requirements for faux-timidity from certain individuals?
Metta,
Paul. :)
Oh, Ok, that's completely different from simply being polite then, which to me is rather essential for anyone who wants to be taken seriously...

:heart:
Mike

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:57 pm

Wizard in the Forest wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:44 am
Except there *is* a chasm, and it *is* causing the very issues I discussed. We could claim this is a thing to do with ditthi, but we can't claim it isn't a thing affecting our board right now. It's important to understand some discussions about what exists in a conventional and ultimate level is descriptive, but what we need to do to resolve conflict is prescriptive, and I think Devout Buddhists need to be more compassionate, and Skeptical Buddhists need to be more respectful. I could add to this, I think Devout Buddhists need to be more patient, and Skeptical Buddhists need to slow their speculative views and abandon what is merely facile conjecture.
Again, the problems lie with you. Us and Them. Feeling morally different or better is something that you synthesize in your thought structure. It is not a law of nature, it is a view you create. This view separates you from others.

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:21 pm

As i see it;
With such a variety of opinions being presented as general theravada it kind of forces one to point out disinformation. It requires effort to point out the errors as one has to substatiate the claims preferably with both logic and textual authority. When someone points out flaws in people's opinions, they often get mad, in general those who have most delusion get most mad and they are the ones who have the most flawed opinions. This is in itself not a problem and is unavoidable even tho improvements could be made.

The real issue are the select few people who are just continiously quarrelsome and hold fixed wrong views, they just grind down the people who point out errors, they annoy them and in worst cases make them stop posting. For me Ignoring these people is like trying to ignore someone yelling in your face, it can be done but one might as well just consider leaving.

As for devout Buddhists vs sceptics.. If sceptics leave there is no issue, if devout Buddhists leave they take the Buddhism with them. The quality of content on this forum is going to be determined by the quality people posting, it is not a Theravada Forum if there are no Theravadins left.

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by Mr Man » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:49 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:21 pm
As i see it;
With such a variety of opinions being presented as general theravada it kind of forces one to point out disinformation. It requires effort to point out the errors as one has to substatiate the claims preferably with both logic and textual authority. When someone points out flaws in people's opinions, they often get mad, in general those who have most delusion get most mad and they are the ones who have the most flawed opinions. This is in itself not a problem and is unavoidable even tho improvements could be made.

The real issue are the select few people who are just continiously quarrelsome and hold fixed wrong views, they just grind down the people who point out errors, they annoy them and in worst cases make them stop posting. For me Ignoring these people is like trying to ignore someone yelling in your face, it can be done but one might as well just consider leaving.

As for devout Buddhists vs sceptics.. If sceptics leave there is no issue, if devout Buddhists leave they take the Buddhism with them. The quality of content on this forum is going to be determined by the quality people posting, it is not a Theravada Forum if there are no Theravadins left.
So who are the devout Buddhists? To my mind a devout lay Buddhist is one who visits the temple often. Makes offering of food and requisites to monastics. Upholds the precepts observes the uposhatha. Is that correct?

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:53 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:49 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:21 pm
As i see it;
With such a variety of opinions being presented as general theravada it kind of forces one to point out disinformation. It requires effort to point out the errors as one has to substatiate the claims preferably with both logic and textual authority. When someone points out flaws in people's opinions, they often get mad, in general those who have most delusion get most mad and they are the ones who have the most flawed opinions. This is in itself not a problem and is unavoidable even tho improvements could be made.

The real issue are the select few people who are just continiously quarrelsome and hold fixed wrong views, they just grind down the people who point out errors, they annoy them and in worst cases make them stop posting. For me Ignoring these people is like trying to ignore someone yelling in your face, it can be done but one might as well just consider leaving.

As for devout Buddhists vs sceptics.. If sceptics leave there is no issue, if devout Buddhists leave they take the Buddhism with them. The quality of content on this forum is going to be determined by the quality people posting, it is not a Theravada Forum if there are no Theravadins left.
So who are the devout Buddhists? To my mind a devout lay Buddhist is one who visits the temple often. Makes offering of food and requisites to monastics. Upholds the precepts observes the uposhatha. Is that correct?
My definition of a devout Buddhist would be those who are Ariya including Faith-Followers, Dhamma-Follower and the higher stages. I even think that non-Ariyans are essentially unworthy of using this forum, let alone using it to corrupt the Dhamma and should therefore be very greatful.
Devotion of the Noble Ones;
“What do you think, Bhaddāli? Suppose a bhikkhu here were one liberated-by-wisdom … a body-witness … one attained-to-view … one liberated-by-faith … a Dhamma-follower … a faith-follower, and I told him: ‘Come, bhikkhu, be a plank for me across the mud.’ Would he walk across himself, or would he dispose his body otherwise, or would he say ‘No’?”
“No, venerable sir.”

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by Mr Man » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:22 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:53 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:49 pm
So who are the devout Buddhists? To my mind a devout lay Buddhist is one who visits the temple often. Makes offering of food and requisites to monastics. Upholds the precepts observes the uposhatha. Is that correct?
My definition of a devout Buddhist would be those who are Ariya including Faith-Followers, Dhamma-Follower and the higher stages. I even think that non-Ariyans are essentially unworthy of using this forum, let alone using it to corrupt the Dhamma and should therefore be very greatful.
Oh, okay.

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by befriend » Fri Jun 22, 2018 2:50 pm

Let's just stop arguing about arguing and find the middle path of this which would be continuing to correct people by quoting suttas. I'm sorry I started this shit storm.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by egon » Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:41 pm

Hi, everybody! My participation in a recent thread is most assuredly being referenced by dylanj, and I imagine has been reported as suggested by retro. All good. I'm learning the ropes around here and wish to be respectful.

I see no benefit for anyone in the derailment of a topic in which my materialist POV would do just that. I'm here to learn, and will be mindful of where I post if my intention is to express a clearly non-theravadan idea.

I think that there are a few subs whose title suggest that a more open discussion from different paths is implied:

Discovering Theravada
Personal Experience
Family Life and Relationships
Wellness, Diet, & Fitness
Connections to Other Paths

If an OP in these sub would choose to include that they wish for their discussion to include only Theravadan perspectives, I'm happy to respect that.
Also, I'm happy to receive any criticism or a heads-up that I've been disrespectful. I never ever intend to be.

Thanks!

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Re: Faith and Doubt: Why are we quarreling lately?

Post by Wizard in the Forest » Fri Jun 22, 2018 5:17 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Jun 22, 2018 1:53 pm
My definition of a devout Buddhist would be those who are Ariya including Faith-Followers, Dhamma-Follower and the higher stages. I even think that non-Ariyans are essentially unworthy of using this forum, let alone using it to corrupt the Dhamma and should therefore be very greatful.
Devotion of the Noble Ones;
You ARE aware that would exclude many devoted followers of the Buddha, right? They're talking about Stream Entrants here. That would make it impossible for those who are trying to learn about Dhamma and I think it should not be so strict or stringent. This board would be very small if it only consisted of holy ones.

I do think it is better instead to leave it open, but to actually ensure that the views are representative where they need to be, and that respect and compassion is given to all practicioners and non practicioners. I point out my observation that I feel you are lacking in compassion here in many ways for those who are sincere aspirants and those who are actual practicioners that are plagued by skeptical doubt. These are serious hindrances you know.
"One is not born a woman, but becomes one."- Simone de Beauvoir

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