Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:22 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:18 am
You just don't know enough extremist news outlets. :sage: :thinking: Perhap's thats a good thing.
Well, of course, I've seen people ranting on the Internet about such things, but it doesn't seem particularly relevant to anything I've experienced in real life... Perhaps Canada and New Zealand are special... :toast:

:heart:
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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:28 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:17 am
Greetings Coëmgenu,

Interesting...

So based on your post here, where you insist I am "alt-right" and in this post you say "How do you tell if someone is an alt-righter? They talk about the wicked system (gynocentrism) that is destroying us."

So... are you alleging that I'm saying "gynocentrism is destroying us"?

Metta,
Paul. :)
Its one of many ways. Basically the alt-right and the alt-left each have a group of mutually opposed buzzwords that they identify as the key area from which "the degeneracy" originates. Other mutually opposed buzzwords I could have used were "racists" and "race-baiters". They are many more.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:33 am

Greetings Coëmgenu,

By & large, Coëmgenu, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of this identity & that identity. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'this identity' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'that identity' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

By & large, Coëmgenu, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Coëmgenu, that there is right view.

This identity: That is one extreme. ' That identity': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the truth is understood via the middle...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:36 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:33 am
Greetings Coëmgenu,

By & large, Coëmgenu, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of this identity & that identity. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'this identity' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'that identity' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

By & large, Coëmgenu, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Coëmgenu, that there is right view.

This identity: That is one extreme. ' That identity': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the truth is understood via the middle...
This is your usual MO. We've had discussions about identity politics here in the past before.

Saying "I'm free from X and Y extremes" is not the same as actually being free from X and Y extremes.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:38 am

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:36 am
Saying "I'm free for X and Y extremes" is not being free from X and Y extremes.
It is saying that this is the truth, Right View. Why would I willingly accept an ideology which deviates in such a way from Right View?

Clue: I wouldn't.... despite your arrogance in assuming, and then insisting that you can define my politics for me.

:hello:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:39 am

For instance, I can say that all phenomena are free from four extremes, by quoting the negative tetralemma.

Does this actually mean that I have realized DO? No, it just means I've quoted some Nāgārjunavacana.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:40 am

Greetings,

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:41 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:40 am
Greetings,

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thats a rather nasty trick. My post was not off topic.

If my post about the four extremes was off topic, than your post about the two extremes was as well.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:50 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:39 am
For instance, I can say that all phenomena are free from four extremes, by quoting the negative tetralemma.

Does this actually mean that I have realized DO? No, it just means I've quoted some Nāgārjunavacana.
Since this is being considered off-topic, I figure it may be a service to the forum to contextualize it.

My companion in conversation posted this adapted scripture, adapted from the Kaccayanagottasutta:

By & large, Coëmgenu, this world is supported by (takes as its object) a polarity, that of this identity & that identity. But when one sees the origination of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'this identity' with reference to the world does not occur to one. When one sees the cessation of the world as it actually is with right discernment, 'that identity' with reference to the world does not occur to one.

By & large, Coëmgenu, this world is in bondage to attachments, clingings (sustenances), & biases. But one such as this does not get involved with or cling to these attachments, clingings, fixations of awareness, biases, or obsessions; nor is he resolved on 'my self.' He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It's to this extent, Coëmgenu, that there is right view.

This identity: That is one extreme. ' That identity': That is a second extreme. Avoiding these two extremes, the truth is understood via the middle...


My companion in conversation is claiming to be free of this identity and that identity, in short, free of the extremes posited by the Buddha in this scripture.

I can quote scripture similarly:

Not from itself, not from another, not from both, nor without cause:
Never in any way is there any existing thing that has arisen.


If I were to claim that I were free from the extremes presented therein, I would be guilty of vainglorious prelest.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:56 am

Greetings Coëmgenu,

:offtopic:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:41 am
If my post about the four extremes was off topic, than your post about the two extremes was as well.
No it's not. I'm allowed to refute false allegations made against me, as well as misrepresentations of my views... and so are you. You're merely fortunate that you cast such aspersions here rather than in the News section...
NewsTOS wrote:2. Whilst you may critique ideas, you may not attack or smear members who ascribe to such views, or who are perceived by you (rightly or wrongly) to be holders of those views.
Now, for the last time...

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:59 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:56 am
Greetings Coëmgenu,

:offtopic:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:41 am
If my post about the four extremes was off topic, than your post about the two extremes was as well.
No it's not. I'm allowed to refute false allegations made against me, as well as misrepresentations of my views... and so are you. You're merely fortunate that you cast such aspersions here rather than in the News section...
NewsTOS wrote:2. Whilst you may critique ideas, you may not attack or smear members who ascribe to such views, or who are perceived by you (rightly or wrongly) to be holders of those views.
Now, for the last time...

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
This is a nasty trick, as I've said before. These posts are not off topic. We're having a conversation about exactly what the OP is about.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:00 pm

I'm screenshotting this entire thread. I don't trust the moderation.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:04 pm

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:00 pm
I'm screenshotting this entire thread. I don't trust the moderation.
No more disruptive meta-discussion please...
TOS2e wrote:Disruptive meta-discussion (i.e. discussion about discussion, including in-topic complaints about the existence of discussions that don't suit your preferences)
It's a violation of the Terms of Service.

As are...
TOS2d wrote:Unsubstantiated allegations against individuals
Please bring yourself under control.
TOS4 wrote:We expect you to be personally responsible for your own emotions and responses.

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:09 pm

My posts are directly relevant to the OP, they just upset you. You think you are above the extremes in the scripture you quoted to me. You said as much here:

It is saying that this is the truth, Right View. Why would I willingly accept an ideology which deviates in such a way from Right View?

If you do not think that you are subscribe to views that are wrong, in short, if you think that you do not willing accept wrong ideologies, in turn, you cannot think that you are wrong on many other issues pertinent to the OP.

This is extremely relevant and based on your words. Not accusations from me.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:14 pm

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:09 pm
My posts are directly relevant to the OP, they just upset you.
I'm not upset, and in fact, I find your insolence mildly entertaining. That said, I am genuinely disappointed at your ongoing failures to abide by all manner of aspects of the Terms of Service.
2d. Unsubstantiated allegations against individuals or traditions - including psychoanalyzing other members
How many informal warnings are required?

:shrug:

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:15 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:14 pm
Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:09 pm
My posts are directly relevant to the OP, they just upset you.
I'm not upset, and in fact, I find your insolence mildly entertaining. That said, I am genuinely disappointed at your ongoing failures to abide by all manners of the Terms of Service.
2d. Unsubstantiated allegations against individuals or traditions - including psychoanalyzing other members
How many informal warnings are required?

:shrug:

:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Such hubris. Such power-clinging.

I don't want to be a part of this forum with you running it.

I wont find out if you banned me or not.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:17 pm

Greetings Coëmgenu,
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:15 pm
Such hubris. Such power-clinging.
TOS4 wrote:At Dhamma Wheel, we respect your intellectual and spiritual autonomy. As such, the staff here will not enforce reverence to anyone or anything, nor censor speech gratuitously. In keeping with this respect for your autonomy, we expect you to be personally responsible for your own emotions and responses.
Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:15 pm
I don't want to be a part of this forum with you running it.

I wont find out if you banned me or not.
TOS2h wrote:Any subject matter that may be off-topic or is intended to cause disruption or harm may be removed without notice. This includes, but is not restricted to:
2h. Goodbye Cruel Forum posts
:focus:

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by DooDoot » Wed Apr 11, 2018 12:19 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:18 am
That being said, I was expecting at least a mention of the Frankfurt school. After all, that is the conspiracy theory we are talking about here.
Coëmgenu. I think one cannot simply dismiss the Frankfurt school as a conspiracy theory. It was a real thing. There are people in the world attempting to make sense for themselves the social & worldly challenges they are facing. One cannot dismiss their angst, which influences them to become politically aligned in ways which may ultimately be unskilful. Myself, I spent the last two hours in solitude surrounding only by night, the wind & the ocean having a chat to the Buddha about the state of the world & the nature of the world. I have the Buddha to rely on. But we cannot simply dismiss the concerns of people with angst as 'conspiracy theories'. There was a Frankfurt school, which had an agenda, similar to any political group, to influence society & culture. With metta

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

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Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by binocular » Wed Apr 11, 2018 6:17 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Apr 11, 2018 4:57 am
You're totally misunderstanding and misrepresenting what was said.

I'm not saying that "your truth" is "the truth"... it's just that the purpose of this forum is not about trying to force "the truth" on anyone. Rather, it's about providing a space where people can share and explore ideas and views for themselves, without coercion. Providing that environment, and going through that interactive exploration with other Buddhists, rather than dogmatically accepting teachings from authority figures, actually maximises the likelihood that "your truth" will be aligned with "the truth" - which is not owned by anyone.
The language used often does not accord with that, though. Statements are usually made in the absolute, neutrality presuming form, not as I-messages. (Like right now, I'm using such an absolute form.) Using this absolute, neutrality presuming form, we get a row of dogmatic claims. That's not an environment in which one could actually explore things.
I'd suggest that what you experience as an "aggressive communication style" is actually the Dhamma Wheel staff getting sick and tired of the way you unfairly project your historical experiences with religious authorities onto us, as if we were personally responsible for any dukkha that befell you in former years. We do not deserve that, and it would be decent of you, and certainly appreciated by me, if from now on you were mindful to strive harder to differentiate between what staff actually do, versus the qualities and motives that you impute upon them based upon your former misadventures with people who are not us.

It would be decent and fair if you would stop projecting on me like that. And it's sad that you think I'm projecting my "authority issues" on you. It seems you think that people who have had some bad experiences with people in positions of power are 1. forever damaged by it, and 2. are forever automatically disqualified from having any insight into the workings of power, and so their statements must never be taken seriously or listened to, but only be considered mere whining, at best, or worse, offensive.
We do not deserve to be on the end of your unfair projections - enough is enough.
It's not that I merely "experience [your style] as an "aggressive communication style"", it's that the communication style often used by you, other moderators, and most members, is a textbook example of the aggressive communication style. "Aggressive communication style", "assertive communication style" etc. are terms, not merely my descriptions. There's a whole science to communication styles. I thought this was generally known. But apparently, I was wrong.
I thought that this being a Buddhist forum, people would be well aware of these things, since Right Speech is a Path Factor, both from the perspective of communication science, as well as specifically from the perspective of Buddhist philosophy. E.g. understanding the difference between saying "I like this book" and "This is a good book". I would think that a Buddhist would be very much interested in this type of difference, as in it, several central Buddhist themes culminate.

But, apparently, we are lightyears apart.

Upeksha
Posts: 119
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 3:23 am

Re: Free speech, mere offense, direct harm & antisemitism

Post by Upeksha » Wed Apr 11, 2018 10:26 pm

I'm going to out myself as someone who has taught political philosophy and ethics at university for many years.

The issue is very clear to me: it is the conflation of a holding and asserting an explicit political position (and also moderating on that basis) with a simultaneous claim of political neutrality. These are contradictory things.

The explicit political position is plainly a libertarian privileging of maximal individual agency - and its related epistemological underpinning of 'truth found in autonomy alone.' I think it's also fair to say that this position is in a robust dialectic with more collectivist, communitarian and egalitarian political positions. For example, the Frankfurt School is really Hegelian on the question of truth (i.e. truth emerges in a historical dialectic). Now the point is that I don't see anyone making deep arguments, say about Kant and Hegel and how truth or knowledge might emerge either individually or collectively. The Hegelian version is already presupposed to be wrong (or worse: some kind of egregious mind control fantasy). But in reality these are deep debates which keep philosophers very occupied. They should not be presumed settled.

Now, nothing wrong with having a political position. And defending it. And moderating in accord with its values.

What's wrong is assuming that this not a political position, that one is merely being politically neutral in espousing it and I suppose most alarmingly, denying the efficacy or potential truth value of positions which dissent from this one.

I have to say, in defense of Paul, that it is really difficult to hold all of this together in the mind and operate perfectly consistently as if some perfect manifestation of justice. Especially when things get heated or antagonistic.

But at the same time, there probably are some blind spots there, and that's what people seem to be picking up on.

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