ban heretics

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Grigoris
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Re: ban heretics

Post by Grigoris » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:20 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Sun Mar 18, 2018 1:43 am
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 11:43 pm
Circle5 wrote:
Sat Mar 17, 2018 9:24 pm
...existentialist buddhism...
Hi Circle5, could you give me a link to a page, or some kind of info on Existentialist Buddhism? I know what the words mean independently, but together they sound interesting. Many thanks, James
It's meant to be a combination of postmodernism and buddhism. Their idea is that the true meaning of Buddha teachings were lost ever since he died and for 2500 years, closed-minded traditionalist have translated them wrongly and that Nanavira rediscovered their true meaning through combining them with the postmodernism of Heidegger, Husserl, Satre etc. And now the world is in the light again.

Links:
http://nanavira.org/
https://pathpress.wordpress.com/

B.Bodhi criticism of this, only famous bhikkhu who bothered adressing this small sect:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=4791
(at the bottom of first page)
Post-Modernism and Existenialism are two very different things.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

WorldTraveller
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Re: ban heretics

Post by WorldTraveller » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:37 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:05 pm
very good idea to at the very least ban the trolls who openly reject the teachings saying things like;
- Teachings of the Buddha are outdated and modern dictionary definitions for what is perception and consciousness should be followed rather than the Pali words.
- People who openly say that they have their own version of the teachings and interpretations, people not at all interested in the Classical Theravada interpretations

These trolls are highly disruptive and annoying.
“Bhikkhus, if anyone should speak against me (i.e. The Buddha), Dhamma, or Sangha, you should not either bear malice, suffer
heartburning, or feel ill will. If you should be angry and hurt, that would only be a hindrance to you in your own self conquest.

If, when anyone speaks against us, you feel angry and displeased at that, would you then be able to judge how far that speech of theirs
is well said or ill?

But when anyone speak against me, Dhamma, or Sangha, you should unravel what is false and point it out as wrong, saying: 'For this or that reason this is not the fact, that is not so, such a thing is not found among us, is not in us.'

Also, if anyone should praise me, Dhamma, or Sangha, you should not, be filled with pleasure, gladness, or be lifted up in heart.
Were you to be so, that also would only be a hindrance to you in your own self conquest. When anyone praises me, Dhamma, or
Sangha, you should acknowledge what is right to be the fact, saying: 'For this or that reason this is the fact that is so, such a thing is
found among us, is in us.'”
[Dīgha Nikāya 1, Brahmajāla Sutta]
“Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Buddha

rightviewftw
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Re: ban heretics

Post by rightviewftw » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:15 pm

WorldTraveller wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:37 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:05 pm
very good idea to at the very least ban the trolls who openly reject the teachings saying things like;
- Teachings of the Buddha are outdated and modern dictionary definitions for what is perception and consciousness should be followed rather than the Pali words.
- People who openly say that they have their own version of the teachings and interpretations, people not at all interested in the Classical Theravada interpretations

These trolls are highly disruptive and annoying.
“Bhikkhus, if anyone should speak against me (i.e. The Buddha), Dhamma, or Sangha, you should not either bear malice, suffer
heartburning, or feel ill will. If you should be angry and hurt, that would only be a hindrance to you in your own self conquest.

If, when anyone speaks against us, you feel angry and displeased at that, would you then be able to judge how far that speech of theirs
is well said or ill?

But when anyone speak against me, Dhamma, or Sangha, you should unravel what is false and point it out as wrong, saying: 'For this or that reason this is not the fact, that is not so, such a thing is not found among us, is not in us.'

Also, if anyone should praise me, Dhamma, or Sangha, you should not, be filled with pleasure, gladness, or be lifted up in heart.
Were you to be so, that also would only be a hindrance to you in your own self conquest. When anyone praises me, Dhamma, or
Sangha, you should acknowledge what is right to be the fact, saying: 'For this or that reason this is the fact that is so, such a thing is
found among us, is in us.'”
[Dīgha Nikāya 1, Brahmajāla Sutta]
I do not think that the teaching is to stay among them or tolerate them especially if they quarrelsome
Dhammacariya Sutta: Wrong Conduct

"The practice of Dhamma, [1] the practice of continence, [2] mastery of this is said to be best if a person has gone forth from home to the homeless life. But if he is garrulous and, like a brute, delights in hurting others, his life is evil and his impurity increases.

"A quarrelsome bhikkhu shrouded by delusion, does not comprehend the Dhamma taught by the Awakened One when it is revealed. Annoying those practiced in meditation, being led by ignorance, he is not aware that his defiled path leads to Niraya-hell. Falling headlong, passing from womb to womb, from darkness to (greater) darkness, such a bhikkhu undergoes suffering hereafter for certain.

"As a cesspool filled over a number of years is difficult to clean, similarly, whoever is full of impurity is difficult to make pure. Whoever you know to be such, bhikkhus, bent on worldliness, having wrong desires, wrong thoughts, wrong behavior and resort, being completely united avoid him, sweep him out like dirt, remove him like rubbish. Winnow like chaff the non-recluses. Having ejected those of wrong desires, of wrong behavior and resort, be pure and mindful, dwelling with those who are pure. Being united and prudent you will make an end to suffering."

WorldTraveller
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Re: ban heretics

Post by WorldTraveller » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:05 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:15 pm
Oh well! Someone must have really trolled you.

Better just pass and leave them for admins & mods. :smile:
“Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Buddha

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budo
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Re: ban heretics

Post by budo » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:18 am

My only issue is that a subject of conversation cannot be maintained due to thread derailing/hijacking.

Take for example my jhana thread I created with the intention of finding like minded individuals to help eachother develop jhanas. Instead the thread got brigaded by people who

- Do not believe in Buddhism
- Do not believe in Samatha
- Do not believe Jhana is useful
- Do not believe Jhana is possible in this lifetime

How can anything productive happen if people are allowed to convert any thread into an argument. If my thread was respected then people could exchange advice to help eachother grow instead of being backtracked by doubters who are trying to reinvent Buddhism and the wheel.

There needs to be a new subforum for Jhana practice which is for serious meditators and invite only, to prevent keyboard warriors and internet "scholars" from derailing and hijacking the thread, and trying to keep everyone down and unenlightened.

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retrofuturist
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Re: ban heretics

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:23 am

Greetings Budo,

There's some upcoming tweaks to the Terms of Service (coming probably within the next 24 hours) which should empower moderators to help cut down on such derailment. The kinds of behaviours you described have been observed and will be addressed more tightly in the future.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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budo
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Re: ban heretics

Post by budo » Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:24 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:23 am
Greetings Budo,

There's some upcoming tweaks to the Terms of Service (coming probably within the next 24 hours) which should empower moderators to help cut down on such derailment. The kinds of behaviours you described have been observed and will be addressed more tightly in the future.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thank you :bow:

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SDC
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Re: ban heretics

Post by SDC » Wed Jun 13, 2018 3:01 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:18 am
My only issue is that a subject of conversation cannot be maintained due to thread derailing/hijacking.

Take for example my jhana thread I created with the intention of finding like minded individuals to help eachother develop jhanas. Instead the thread got brigaded by people who

- Do not believe in Buddhism
- Do not believe in Samatha
- Do not believe Jhana is useful
- Do not believe Jhana is possible in this lifetime

How can anything productive happen if people are allowed to convert any thread into an argument. If my thread was respected then people could exchange advice to help eachother grow instead of being backtracked by doubters who are trying to reinvent Buddhism and the wheel.

There needs to be a new subforum for Jhana practice which is for serious meditators and invite only, to prevent keyboard warriors and internet "scholars" from derailing and hijacking the thread, and trying to keep everyone down and unenlightened.
As Paul said, there will be a different line drawn soon, but do not expect us to curb legitimate and on-topic curiosity and speculation regarding the profundity of the jhanas.

But you did the right thing in your OP when you attempted to set an additional standard of conduct. We will do our best to moderate according to such requests going forward pending they are within reason. Though be sure not to narrow down criteria to the degree that no one would participate.

WorldTraveller
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Re: ban heretics

Post by WorldTraveller » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:08 pm

budo wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:18 am
...How can anything productive happen if people are allowed to convert any thread into an argument. If my thread was respected then people could exchange advice to help eachother grow instead of being backtracked by doubters who are trying to reinvent Buddhism and the wheel.

There needs to be a new subforum for Jhana practice which is for serious meditators and invite only, to prevent keyboard warriors and internet "scholars" from derailing and hijacking the thread, and trying to keep everyone down and unenlightened.
I read the 1st page of your jhana thread. I think the situation is similar to where someone told the Buddha about Alara Kalama's claim about not seeing or hearing when 500 carts passing him while he's in jhana. Later, the Buddha revealed about his own jhana where he heard or saw nothing about the heavy rain, with thunder rolling, lightning flashing happened during the absorption.

There the Buddha asked what is more difficult to do, more difficult to meet with, that a man who conscious and awake not see a great number of carts, nor hear the noise, or in a heavy rain, with thunder and lightning, neither see it nor hear the noise? This incident recorded in DN 16

If think along the Buddha's elephant foot print simile, we might think our experience as seeing the biggest foot print. But someone might come along and say that they have seen a bigger one than what you saw. Now, is it correct to call that 2nd person a troll for seeing a bigger foot print? :smile:

If that happened those who can actually help would not participate and help.
Last edited by WorldTraveller on Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
“Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Buddha

rightviewftw
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Re: ban heretics

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:12 pm

WorldTraveller wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:05 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:15 pm
Oh well! Someone must have really trolled you.
of course, this thread is where i vent :)

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budo
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Re: ban heretics

Post by budo » Wed Jun 13, 2018 5:21 pm

WorldTraveller wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 4:08 pm
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:18 am
...How can anything productive happen if people are allowed to convert any thread into an argument. If my thread was respected then people could exchange advice to help eachother grow instead of being backtracked by doubters who are trying to reinvent Buddhism and the wheel.

There needs to be a new subforum for Jhana practice which is for serious meditators and invite only, to prevent keyboard warriors and internet "scholars" from derailing and hijacking the thread, and trying to keep everyone down and unenlightened.
I read the 1st page of your jhana thread. I think the situation is similar to where someone told the Buddha about Alara Kalama's claim about not seeing or hearing when 500 carts passing him while he's in jhana. Later, the Buddha revealed about his own jhana where he heard or saw nothing about the heavy rain, with thunder rolling, lightning flashing happened during the absorption.

There the Buddha asked what is more difficult to do, more difficult to meet with, that a man who conscious and awake not see a great number of carts, nor hear the noise, or in a heavy rain, with thunder and lightning, neither see it nor hear the noise? This incident recorded in DN 16

If think along the Buddha's elephant foot print simile, we might think our experience as seeing the biggest foot print. But someone might come along and say that they have seen a bigger one than what you saw. Now, is it correct to call that 2nd person a troll for seeing a bigger foot print? :smile:

If that happened those who can actually help would not participate and help.
The whole purpose of my thread was to invite those who saw bigger than what I saw so that they could help me and others, instead I got people who doubt jhanas are possible or useful. So quite the opposite.

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mikenz66
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Re: ban heretics

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:58 pm

Hi budo,
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:18 am
My only issue is that a subject of conversation cannot be maintained due to thread derailing/hijacking.
As retro says, we are aware of this and have been stepping up splitting off-topic chatter into separate threads. I, too, find it discouraging when questions, especially questions about practice, get replies along the lines of "why would you want to do that anyway?"

If you feel that a post is off-topic, then please feel free to use the report button. And please don't argue with the post. It is much easier for the moderating team to split off one or two off-topic posts than to trawl through a topic sorting between the on-topic posts and the off-topic ones, and the replies to the off topic ones, and the replies to the replies... The time that takes can be prohibitive...

:heart:
Mike

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retrofuturist
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Re: ban heretics

Post by retrofuturist » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:35 pm

Greetings Budo,
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:24 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:23 am
Greetings Budo,

There's some upcoming tweaks to the Terms of Service (coming probably within the next 24 hours) which should empower moderators to help cut down on such derailment. The kinds of behaviours you described have been observed and will be addressed more tightly in the future.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thank you :bow:
Here they are...

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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budo
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Re: ban heretics

Post by budo » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:40 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:35 pm
Greetings Budo,
budo wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:24 am
retrofuturist wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 11:23 am
Greetings Budo,

There's some upcoming tweaks to the Terms of Service (coming probably within the next 24 hours) which should empower moderators to help cut down on such derailment. The kinds of behaviours you described have been observed and will be addressed more tightly in the future.

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thank you :bow:
Here they are...

Metta,
Paul. :)

New thread up, thank you! :twothumbsup:

rightviewftw
Posts: 1553
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2018 8:50 pm

Re: ban heretics

Post by rightviewftw » Wed Jun 13, 2018 10:38 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Mon Apr 09, 2018 9:33 am
I am pretty sure mods would have to self-ban if heresy was to be removed as i am pretty sure they are not all attained to view.
in hindsight i dont want to speculate about the attainments of the mods so i apologize if i not knowing of your attainments reviled you.

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