Confessions subforum

[Nwad]

Hello Dears Moderators!:)

As Rightview suggested (if i dont mistake) i think it would be good to create a "confessions subforum" to let peoples confess theirs faults of conduct and to let them avoid it in the future ?

What do you think ?:)

Metta

[JamesTheGiant]

How about you start your own thread for that purpose. You could call it "Confessions thread"
There's no need for a subforum.
By the way, I find the idea quite strange. Confessions are for monks, and Catholics, and they are always done in private. I've not heard of laypeople being encouraged to make confessions of wrongdoing.
But it's your business, and best wishes to you, and may you meet with success.

[rightviewftw]

We have occasional threads with confessions, i think we could just make a Thread and if it is popular we can ask to get it pinned. Perhaps in Sila section.

I think confessions are clearly a quite important tool and i encourage all people to confess their wrong doing as part of their Integrity training and more.

AN 4.73 Sappurisa Sutta: A Person of Integrity https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
...
"Then again, a person of no integrity, when asked, does not reveal his own bad points, to say nothing of when unasked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of his own bad points not in full, not in detail, with omissions, holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of no integrity.'
...
"Then again, a person of integrity, when unasked, reveals his own bad points, to say nothing of when asked. Furthermore, when asked, when pressed with questions, he is one who speaks of his own bad points in full & in detail, without omissions, without holding back. Of this person you may know, 'This venerable one is a person of integrity.'
...

In practice you will find that it is an incredibly Noble practice, people appreciate it a lot and no matter if they are angry or whatever at the offense they have to respect you for having enough integrity to confess.

[dylanj]

+1 with OP & rightviewftw

[dharmacorps]

How about you start your own thread for that purpose. You could call it "Confessions thread"
There's no need for a subforum.
By the way, I find the idea quite strange. Confessions are for monks, and Catholics, and they are always done in private. I've not heard of laypeople being encouraged to make confessions of wrongdoing.
But it's your business, and best wishes to you, and may you meet with success.

I was surprised to see this suggestion too and had the same thoughts as James-- feels like a Judeo-Christian practice to me, except done "publicly" on DW.

[DNS]

For confessions, I'd recommend using the 'Personal experience' subforum. That subforum is only visible to members who are logged-in and that way it will be less visible to the outside world, family members, friends, etc in case someone recognizes your identity here.

[binocular]

As Rightview suggested (if i dont mistake) i think it would be good to create a "confessions subforum" to let peoples confess theirs faults of conduct and to let them avoid it in the future ?

What do you think ?

That this is a form of attention-seeking. Bragging with one's less than virtuous behavior so as to come across as virtuous. As if to say, "See, I did some shitty thing, but now that I'm telling ya'll about it, that makes me such a good person!"

Not everyone needs to know about the less than noble things one has done. There is a place and time for confession, and it's with people one considers admirable friends. Not a bunch of mostly strangers on the internet, many of whom could unnecessarily have their doubts proliferated after reading such confessions.

[Nwad]

There is no phenomena when there is no conditions, and such a special place will provide a base for such a training. Apart from recognising your own faults and developing humility and compassion to yourself, saying it publicly will provide a fear of future wrong doing, it can also give some exeples ans discussion and analysis to avoid difirent cases... And its good to liberate your mind from regrets, even partly...

Is like "Self presentation forum" each case is particular lesson and need to be reflected on apart from others...

It still just a suggestion. I see it as skilfull and concrete base for practice. Some peoples have no other buddhist contact apart from this forum

[rightviewftw]

As Rightview suggested (if i dont mistake) i think it would be good to create a "confessions subforum" to let peoples confess theirs faults of conduct and to let them avoid it in the future ?

What do you think ?

That this is a form of attention-seeking. Bragging with one's less than virtuous behavior so as to come across as virtuous. As if to say, "See, I did some shitty thing, but now that I'm telling ya'll about it, that makes me such a good person!"

Not everyone needs to know about the less than noble things one has done. There is a place and time for confession, and it's with people one considers admirable friends. Not a bunch of mostly strangers on the internet, many of whom could unnecessarily have their doubts proliferated after reading such confessions.

You can think so but it does not make it true. IE i only confess because it is a support for my training honestly, if i write nice things about my practice it is also to support my practice and inspiring faith in others. Some people will read my posts and think oh this guy is attention seeking and bragging, but i do not give a f*** about these people frankly i follow instructions and it works for me.
Honestly i would love it if people were to brag about their training here, it would inspire me. Few people inspire me on DW but there are some who do and that i appreciate. Haters gonna hate. I also consider this place my sangha and it is such by all means to me.

I mostly wanted it for people who are undertaking serious training at home and want to confess things to people they talk to for their own benefit, for overcoming of sorrow and stress.

And also it actually DOES make you a better person.

Need for privacy is a flaw, a weakness, an exploit. Arahants do not need privacy, they are same in private as they are in public. Confessions are a part of the training prescribed by the Tathagata who was a PERFECT, UNEXCELLED TEACHER OF GODS AND MEN.

[dharmacorps]

This depends a lot on the motivation one has to such a process. There are plenty of examples where confessions are used to get attention, and lead to ego-gratification. IE "I'm so special because I am so bad". Very typical of western self-hatred actually being veiled self-involvement and egotism.

If you did something wrong, it seems to me best to apologize to those you hurt in private and do what you can to mend the situation and resolve not to do it again. If for some reason after that you feel the need to apologize publicly, I doubt DW is the best place for it. Self-imposed public humiliation doesn't seem especially skillful. I guess I could see it as a last resort for someone who keeps making the same transgressions and nothing else works .

[Dhammarakkhito]

the instructions to rahula at mango stone say to confess. concerning to say one thing is for catholics and because it is for catholics its not for us. highly sectarian and divisive

[rightviewftw]

I will even suggest that is pretty conceited to think that someone would care to seek your attention.

[rightviewftw]

And i am sorry for harsh words obv i get very angry about this shit and say inappropriate stuff.

People think what they think and i should not attack people who disagree with me.

But then again this is a Theravada Buddhist Forum, for people who want to attain Arahantship. Therefore it is rediculous that people criticize practices that are proclaimed to lead to the goal. So i am not THAT sorry really.

People who don't care for Arahantship, people who want to discuss politics, feminism, gynocentrism, other religions and practices can do it elsewhere.

What right do you have to tell us that this is not a place to confess or brag about virtue...

[JamesTheGiant]

Just go and DO IT if you want to, and stop arguing about it. Make a thread, and confess to your heart's content.

[perkele]

Hello Dears Moderators!:)

Although I'm not a moderator, but since many here have given their opinions, I'm going to weigh in and give mine as well.

As Rightview suggested (if i dont mistake) i think it would be good to create a "confessions subforum" to let peoples confess theirs faults of conduct and to let them avoid it in the future ?

What do you think ?:)

I think it is a very good idea.

How about you start your own thread for that purpose. You could call it "Confessions thread"
There's no need for a subforum.

We have occasional threads with confessions, i think we could just make a Thread and if it is popular we can ask to get it pinned. Perhaps in Sila section.

I think that since individual confessions would be about individual moral issues, it would not be good to lump them all into one thread.

For confessions, I'd recommend using the 'Personal experience' subforum. That subforum is only visible to members who are logged-in and that way it will be less visible to the outside world, family members, friends, etc in case someone recognizes your identity here.

While it is true that there is already possibility of doing it in this way, I think that, since confessions are concerned with sila, it would be a good idea to have a non-public subforum for that special purpose under the sila forum instead of under general "personal experience". Just a non-public subforum for the sila forum and nothing more special necessary than that. I think that could be very useful.

By the way, I find the idea quite strange. Confessions are for monks, and Catholics, and they are always done in private. I've not heard of laypeople being encouraged to make confessions of wrongdoing.

I was surprised to see this suggestion too and had the same thoughts as James-- feels like a Judeo-Christian practice to me, except done "publicly" on DW.

I think this is nonsense. Confession of wrongdoing is a very basic natural human moral behaviour. I think that exists in every culture or society, just that religions which are concerned with ethical behaviour give it some sort of prominence and importance, and that may take on different forms, including some possibly superstitious rites and rituals. But the basic thing is just very human, and the Buddha encouraged such things as laying open one's faults and seeking advice, talking about how to redress and make amends or improve oneself as well. I think it's a very basic part of buddhist practice.

"Yes, great king, /.../. But because you see your transgression as such and make amends in accordance with the Dhamma, we accept your confession. For it is a cause of growth in the Dhamma & Discipline of the noble ones when, seeing a transgression as such, one makes amends in accordance with the Dhamma and exercises restraint in the future."

Why should it be good for monks to confess their mistakes and moral lapses but not for laypeople?

"Having done a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities.

Sure, this is directed to a monk. I think most teachings in the suttas are directed to monks. Should we therefore think that they are irrelevant to us as long as we are laypeople?
The teachings in the Rahulovada Sutta seem to be very general and universally applicable to me. Having done something wrong which weighs heavily on one's conscience, something which is not easily erased from one's mind, it seems very naturally right and good to go and talk about it to someone one trusts, if not possible to very directly go and correct or amend for whatever was done wrong. I don't see how this could possibly be a bad thing to have a forum for such issues here, since it seems to be a very fundamental part of buddhist practice, to purify one's virtue, and to encourage each other in that and seek advice in case of "failure".

What do you think ?

That this is a form of attention-seeking. Bragging with one's less than virtuous behavior so as to come across as virtuous. As if to say, "See, I did some shitty thing, but now that I'm telling ya'll about it, that makes me such a good person!"

Honi soit qui mal y pense. Why suspect the worst possible motives from the outset of people who might use such a forum?

Not everyone needs to know about the less than noble things one has done. There is a place and time for confession, and it's with people one considers admirable friends. Not a bunch of mostly strangers on the internet, many of whom could unnecessarily have their doubts proliferated after reading such confessions.

I agree with your first sentence here, half agree with the second. But the last half-sentence does not make any sense to me. How and why do you think that people could have "their doubts proliferated" by reading about someone admitting to having done something wrong and opening a topic to talk about it here? Maybe I could understand it if you would clarfiy what you are imagining here.

From another thread:

You don't have to deal with them. The slower ones naturally get left behind by the faster ones.

In other words, as per my interpretation and applied to this topic: Those who would use such a forum for senseless self-flaggelation and attention-seeking would eventually learn to let it be and not get much out of it anyway. So why care?

There is a place and time for confession, and it's with people one considers admirable friends. Not a bunch of mostly strangers on the internet

I think the first address to confess or to apologize and try to make amends and turn things right is the person or people or whoever whom one has harmed or done something wrong to in some way. But sometimes that's not directly possible to do. I think that's when the advice, as per MN 61: "confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life" comes into play. That's when one has unresolved issues on one's conscience which one cannot resolve by oneself and one feels the need to talk about it with someone.
Sure, this might not be the best place for it in many cases. But why not accommodate for the possibility? I think that for enough people this forum here would be a natural place to go to when looking for "a knowledgeable companion in the holy life" (and even lay life), as per the advice in MN 61, even if that is only "a bunch of mostly strangers on the internet".

the instructions to rahula at mango stone say to confess. concerning to say one thing is for catholics and because it is for catholics its not for us. highly sectarian and divisive

I completely agree.


I can imagine that admins might see some hurdles in that they don't know how to moderate such a forum, what kinds of special rules should be in place or whatever. I'm not sure if that's the case. But I don't think there would need to be any special different rules in place aside from those that generally apply in the sila section, just that a non-public subforum for the sila forum would be useful for potentially more sensitive issues.
Of course it is already possible to raise topics of such nature. So I also don't quite understand people being concerned about potential "abuse" of whatever kind of such a specialized subforum. The same sort of "abuse" or "attention-seeking" etc. is already possible. It would just be about dedicating a neatly fitting category to such topics, which could, after some getting used to, rather help in encouraging more proper and wholesome use and discussion and advice on such topics in line with the Dhamma than the opposite, IMO.

+1 for "confessions and seeking advice" or "sensitive issues" Sila sub-forum.

[binocular]

I will even suggest that is pretty conceited to think that someone would care to seek your attention.

And yet here you are.

And i am sorry for harsh words obv i get very angry about this shit and say inappropriate stuff.
/.../
What right do you have to tell us that this is not a place to confess or brag about virtue...

So you've been confessing all along anyway. And how has that helped you, or anyone? Are you a better person now, per your own criteria and prediction?

1. Need for privacy is a flaw, a weakness, an exploit.
2. Confessions are a part of the training prescribed by the Tathagata

Canonical support requested for points 1 and 2. For point 2, a canonical statement to the effect that the Buddha instructed public confessions for lay followers.

[SDC]

The only way to test the waters for something like this is to start a thread and see what it becomes.

Personally I think a sub-forum is overkill - I think we already have too many.

[rightviewftw]

And yet here you are.

You came to comment shit on a topic which i and others have raised and somehow i am seeking ur attention.
Actually i no longer consider you worth talking to, so there is that.

[binocular]

The only way to test the waters for something like this is to start a thread and see what it becomes.

Personally I think a sub-forum is overkill - I think we already have too many.

By all means, yes, why isn't it there already!

Better to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission!

[binocular]

Self-imposed public humiliation doesn't seem especially skillful.

And it's an anonymous self-imposed public humiliation at that. Which is lightyears away from a confession that actually matters.

- - -

Why should it be good for monks to confess their mistakes and moral lapses but not for laypeople?

Of course it makes sense to confess: when and to whom it matters.
As the passage you provide says:

"Having done a bodily action, you should reflect on it: 'This bodily action I have done — did it lead to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both? Was it an unskillful bodily action, with painful consequences, painful results?' If, on reflection, you know that it led to self-affliction, to the affliction of others, or to both; it was an unskillful bodily action with painful consequences, painful results, then you should confess it, reveal it, lay it open to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. Having confessed it... you should exercise restraint in the future. But if on reflection you know that it did not lead to affliction... it was a skillful bodily action with pleasant consequences, pleasant results, then you should stay mentally refreshed & joyful, training day & night in skillful mental qualities.

The passage says to confess to the Teacher or to a knowledgeable companion in the holy life. It doesn't say to confess to strangers.

What do you think ?

That this is a form of attention-seeking. Bragging with one's less than virtuous behavior so as to come across as virtuous. As if to say, "See, I did some shitty thing, but now that I'm telling ya'll about it, that makes me such a good person!"

Honi soit qui mal y pense. Why suspect the worst possible motives from the outset of people who might use such a forum?

When there already exists a history of a particular type of behavior, it's not mere bad-faithed speculation anymore to view particular things with suspicion or disapproval.

Not everyone needs to know about the less than noble things one has done. There is a place and time for confession, and it's with people one considers admirable friends. Not a bunch of mostly strangers on the internet, many of whom could unnecessarily have their doubts proliferated after reading such confessions.

I agree with your first sentence here, half agree with the second. But the last half-sentence does not make any sense to me. How and why do you think that people could have "their doubts proliferated" by reading about someone admitting to having done something wrong and opening a topic to talk about it here? Maybe I could understand it if you would clarfiy what you are imagining here.

Simply that reading about other people's transgressions can lead some people to have more doubts about the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha then they had before.

From another thread:

You don't have to deal with them. The slower ones naturally get left behind by the faster ones.

In other words, as per my interpretation and applied to this topic: Those who would use such a forum for senseless self-flaggelation and attention-seeking would eventually learn to let it be and not get much out of it anyway. So why care?

No, that's not what I meant by what you quoted from me. I meant that those who actually are capable of walking faster don't feel bothered by those who are slower. In that conversation where this is from, the other poster was complaining about all those less than advanced people and how burdensome they are to the more advanced. To which I commented that the truly advanced aren't bothered by the less advanced, because they simply leave them far behind.

But why not accommodate for the possibility? I think that for enough people this forum here would be a natural place to go to when looking for "a knowledgeable companion in the holy life" (and even lay life), as per the advice in MN 61, even if that is only "a bunch of mostly strangers on the internet".

I think one has to make that accomodation oneself, by actually establishing some kind of relationship with particular other people, one where the friendship in "admirable friendship" isn't just a formality.

+1 for "confessions and seeking advice" or "sensitive issues" Sila sub-forum.

There already is something similar in place here anyway, it's part of the culture of this forum that people frequently post confessions and ask for advice.

Anyway, this opposition is looking more intense than it actually is, simply because stances get artificially polarized in a debate. By all means, confess, even more than already, let's see what happens!