Diversity among mods

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binocular
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by binocular » Mon Jan 22, 2018 5:52 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:33 pm
Is it these people being attacked, or is it their articles of faith about the origins of the Abhidhamma being challenged?
In this particular case, is there really a difference between the two?

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binocular
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by binocular » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:08 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:56 pm
binocular wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:19 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:43 am
Maybe debate is praised and practised during times when there is a lot of uncertainty, and then declines when the truth (or the perceived truth) is accepted by a majority of the population.
It seems to me that it's the other way around: In times of certainty, people can afford to indulge in luxuries, such as talking that is pretty much for the sake of talking. When times are tough, people preach, or don't talk much at all.
Possibly. Historical examples required.
Come to think of it, it's a matter of perspective and which sector of society one focuses on. Look at the global crisis and the way people talk about it, for example: some people believe the solution is relatively simple and that there is nothing much to discuss or debate; some others think the crisis is intractable and can show this by citing abundant evidence and arguments.

What you said earlier seems counterintuitive to me: I think that in times of (personal) uncertainty, people will act defensively and try to reduce their vulnerability, which means, among other things, they will avoid exposing their mental and other weaknesses, which could be exposed in debate.
Were those debates, though?
The communications in the suttas don't fall into the categories of debates, some are discussions, many are preaching (yes, yes, a term many people don't like nowadays ...).
It would be interesting to see a breakdown of methods or styles within the suttas, but there is certainly a great deal of preaching, and there are lots of debates which take the form of Socratic elenchus.
How can there be a "Socratic debate" -- isn't that a contradiction in terms? But that's for another thread.
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by DNS » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:21 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:38 pm
We don't actually know that the Venerable Śāriputra did not transmit definitive Abhidhamma clarifications of suttanta. Anyone who tells you otherwise in an absolutist manner is not being academically honest.
Possibly; and then conversely:

We don't actually know that the Venerable Śāriputra did transmit definitive Abhidhamma clarifications of suttanta. Anyone who tells you otherwise in an absolutist manner is not being academically honest.

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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Coëmgenu » Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pm

DNS wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:21 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:38 pm
We don't actually know that the Venerable Śāriputra did not transmit definitive Abhidhamma clarifications of suttanta. Anyone who tells you otherwise in an absolutist manner is not being academically honest.
Possibly; and then conversely:

We don't actually know that the Venerable Śāriputra did transmit definitive Abhidhamma clarifications of suttanta. Anyone who tells you otherwise in an absolutist manner is not being academically honest.
Certainly, if that person were an academic or if they were basing their appeals upon contemporary academic Buddhology.

But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Circle5 » Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:09 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pm
Certainly, if that person were an academic or if they were basing their appeals upon contemporary academic Buddhology.

But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
Abbhidhamma did not exist untill 3rd century. It did not exist at the first 2 buddhist councils. That is the end of the discussion about weather Sariputta transmited it or not. Sariputta was dead for 300 years for god sake.

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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Coëmgenu » Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:08 am

Circle5 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:09 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pm
Certainly, if that person were an academic or if they were basing their appeals upon contemporary academic Buddhology.

But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
Abbhidhamma did not exist untill 3rd century. It did not exist at the first 2 buddhist councils. That is the end of the discussion about weather Sariputta transmited it or not. Sariputta was dead for 300 years for god sake.
You just don't get it, eh? The above is a series of blanket statements based on artificially firming-up the considerably-vaguer stances of several contemporary academic Buddhologists. It is not a valid source of information outside of that academy necessarily at all.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by robertk » Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:24 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pm
DNS wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:21 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 3:38 pm
We don't actually know that the Venerable Śāriputra did not transmit definitive Abhidhamma clarifications of suttanta. Anyone who tells you otherwise in an absolutist manner is not being academically honest.
Possibly; and then conversely:

We don't actually know that the Venerable Śāriputra did transmit definitive Abhidhamma clarifications of suttanta. Anyone who tells you otherwise in an absolutist manner is not being academically honest.
Certainly, if that person were an academic or if they were basing their appeals upon contemporary academic Buddhology.

But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
:sage: :sage: :sage:

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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by mikenz66 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:09 am

I recall this point also being made in another recent thread, and I think it's worth thinking about:
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pm
But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
In the other thread I noted that the Dhamma runs counter to various materialist and intellectual ideas, so it's worth considering whether we bring too much baggage from "the academy" to our evaluation of what is "True Dhamma".

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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by binocular » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:03 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:09 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pm
But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
In the other thread I noted that the Dhamma runs counter to various materialist and intellectual ideas, so it's worth considering whether we bring too much baggage from "the academy" to our evaluation of what is "True Dhamma".
Baggage from "the academy", and from our specific culture of origin in general.

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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Modus.Ponens » Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:30 am

I personally don't think the Abidhamma was originated as is traditionally believed. The difference between a buddhist and a nonbuddhist is that a nonbuddhist has no realistic place for reasonable doubt, while a buddhist has space for reasonable doubt that the story might be true.

2 cents

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"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Circle5 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:35 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:08 am
Circle5 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:09 am
Coëmgenu wrote:
Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pm
Certainly, if that person were an academic or if they were basing their appeals upon contemporary academic Buddhology.

But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
Abbhidhamma did not exist untill 3rd century. It did not exist at the first 2 buddhist councils. That is the end of the discussion about weather Sariputta transmited it or not. Sariputta was dead for 300 years for god sake.
You just don't get it, eh? The above is a series of blanket statements based on artificially firming-up the considerably-vaguer stances of several contemporary academic Buddhologists. It is not a valid source of information outside of that academy necessarily at all.
1) The language used in the abbhidhamma is from 3rd centuries after the Buddha.

2) The abbhidhamma was not recited at the first and second buddhist council

3) No sane person will ever claim it is as old as the suttas. Even the most fundamentalist abbhidhabamist will acept that it was created 3 centuries after the nikayas, only that he might like the book nonetheless.


There is one thing to like a book, another thing to claim the Bible was written in the time of the dinasours and that Abbhidhabamma was written 10 centuries before the Buddha. Such claims are simply stupid lies. Blame the academics or other smart people how much you want, there is no way you'll ever convince me the Bible was written by the dinasaurs or that abbhidhabamma was written during the time amphibians evolved into mammals.

Facts top opinions.

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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:48 pm

Circle5 wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:35 pm
Coëmgenu wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:08 am
Circle5 wrote:
Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:09 am

Abbhidhamma did not exist untill 3rd century. It did not exist at the first 2 buddhist councils. That is the end of the discussion about weather Sariputta transmited it or not. Sariputta was dead for 300 years for god sake.
You just don't get it, eh? The above is a series of blanket statements based on artificially firming-up the considerably-vaguer stances of several contemporary academic Buddhologists. It is not a valid source of information outside of that academy necessarily at all.
1) The language used in the abbhidhamma is from 3rd centuries after the Buddha.

2) The abbhidhamma was not recited at the first and second buddhist council

3) No sane person will ever claim it is as old as the suttas. Even the most fundamentalist abbhidhabamist will acept that it was created 3 centuries after the nikayas, only that he might like the book nonetheless.


There is one thing to like a book, another thing to claim the Bible was written in the time of the dinasours and that Abbhidhabamma was written 10 centuries before the Buddha. Such claims are simply stupid lies. Blame the academics or other smart people how much you want, there is no way you'll ever convince me the Bible was written by the dinasaurs or that abbhidhabamma was written during the time amphibians evolved into mammals.

Facts top opinions.
This is very academically dishonest. Abbhidhabamma is fun to say, though.
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Coëmgenu » Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:50 pm

Coëmgenu wrote: Abbhidhabamma
It reminds me of: "I be da bomb."
世尊在靈山會上拈華示眾眾皆默然唯迦葉破顏微笑世尊云
The Lord dwelt at the Vulture Peak with the assembly and plucked a flower as a teaching. The myriad totality were silent, save for Kāśyapa, whose face cracked in a faint smile. The Lord spoke.

吾有正法眼藏涅槃妙心實相無相微妙法門不立文字教外別傳付囑摩訶迦葉。
I have the treasure of the true dharma eye, I have nirvāṇa as wondrous citta, I know signless dharmatā, the subtle dharma-gate, which is not standing on written word, which is external to scriptures, which is a special dispensation, which is entrusted to Mahākāśyapa.

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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Circle5 » Wed Jan 24, 2018 10:41 pm

Coëmgenu wrote:
Wed Jan 24, 2018 6:50 pm
Coëmgenu wrote: Abbhidhabamma
It reminds me of: "I be da bomb."
Lol that's actually how I have always used it in real life when talking :mrgreen: indeed sounds funny if you stop and think about it

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