Diversity among mods

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Sam Vara
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:34 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:55 pm
the reason diversity is so important is that each race and gender has certain positive and otherwise attributes that they can bring to the table that a member of another race or gender might not even be aware of, its not about equality, its about welcoming diverse and differing viewpoints into the equation. The Idea of an Asian religions forum being run by all white Western men does not really bring the full beauty, viewpoints, and traditional history of what is almost exclusively in terms of numbers an Asian tradition. The idea that advanced English proficiency is a prerequisite for moderators, would eliminate 99% of the Buddhist monks and nuns in the world, including the Venerable Ajahn Chah if he were still with us.
A couple of points here, if I may.

1) What "positive and otherwise attributes" do particular races have, do you think? Would you like to specify a few races and then state their attributes?

2) If by "running the forum" you mean moderation, then you overlook the fact that everyone has a role in running the forum ("Be the change you want to see", etc., ) and moderation is just one tiny aspect of that.

3) If by "running the forum" you mean moderation, then are you assuming that I am a white western man?

4) I'm not sure about "advanced" English proficiency being required to moderate this forum, nor do I know about the percentages of Buddhist monastics who speak required levels of English. But Ajahn Chah would rightly be eliminated. He may have been a spiritual leader and teacher without parallel, but he would have been as good at moderating here as he would have been at deep-sea diving or tap-dancing.

binocular
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by binocular » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:34 pm

lyndon taylor wrote:
Wed Jan 17, 2018 7:27 pm
you also said the forum has to be complex and we don't need simple Asian monks to participate.
It's bad style to misrepresent others.
Copy-paste where I said what you're accusing me of.
lyndon taylor wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:39 pm
still wondering what an ad hominem post actually is, as many times as I've been accused of it, its still a nothing term to me. Same for straw men, don't care to know what that is.
You should educate yourself on those matters. Then you'd understand what people hold against you.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

binocular
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by binocular » Thu Jan 18, 2018 5:41 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:17 pm
Why? Why not point to the syntax which restricts how you express yourself intelligibly in English?
And not being enlightened is also a major restriction of one's free speech! :thinking:
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 3:56 pm
Providing one does not want to violate the ToS, then one's speech is free. Nobody's speech gets moderated providing it adheres to the ToS. In general, one might say that the speech of all who want to comment is potentially moderated, but what other freedom of speech could you personally want?
The one to say whatever you want. Literally, to match desire and reality, in every way and instance.

I'd love to see what people who complain about restricting the freedom of speech would answer to the following question:
"At least in your privacy, are you able to put into words whatever it is that you want to say?"


I'm a bigmouth, but even I can't put into words everything I want to say, for the simple reason that I don't have the words to do so.
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Mr Man
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Mr Man » Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:49 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:17 pm
By the same token, I am saying "There is no restriction on speech for those who do not desire to breach the ToS". Do you think that what I said is incorrect?
Yes I do. The ToS apply to everyone. Just like the road speed limit applies to everyone not just those who speed.
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:17 pm
Speech on any forum, in any context, is constrained by many factors, including facility with the language, intelligence, access to the means of communication, syntactical possibilities, and so on. This is why the concept of an absolute right to free speech is nonsensical. What utterance could ever be free from all constraints? That is why, in turn, it only makes sense to talk of negative liberty in this context; it's all that this or any other forum can do in order to help you make your points.

Your claiming that there is not full freedom of speech invites the question as to what it is that you think you are not free to say. Of course, in the abstract, one can point to any number of constraints upon one's utterances, and the ToS are indeed some of those constraints. But that then invites the further question as to why that is even an issue worth raising. You have pointed to the ToS as a restriction upon absolute freedom. Why? Why not point to the syntax which restricts how you express yourself intelligibly in English? Either you have a substantive point about what you want to say; or you have a vacuous point.

We could say, of course, that the forum is constrained by being moderated. But if you are entirely happy with this, why even raise it? It's not about you - this is a public forum - but your claim is the occasion for me to make this point about the type of freedom we have here.
Perhaps we could go back to the beginning. Where this conversation started.
Mr Man wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:22 am
No_Mind wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:19 am

There is full freedom of speech in DW now which was lacking when I was banned.
Hi No_Mind
No there is not full freedom of speech in DW now. The forum is moderated.
No_Mind asserted that there was "full freedom of speech in DW now" and I said this was not the case.

I can tell you what I am not free to say. I am not free to say things and use language that is inappropriate to minors. Do I have a problem with that? no. But that does mean I do not have "full freedom of speech"

Why did I raise it? I just responded to No_Mind's assertion. Is that okay?

Now if you want to continue perhaps you could make a case for how there is "full freedom of speech in DW now". Can you do that?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:35 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:49 pm

No_Mind asserted that there was "full freedom of speech in DW now" and I said this was not the case.

I can tell you what I am not free to say. I am not free to say things and use language that is inappropriate to minors. Do I have a problem with that? no. But that does mean I do not have "full freedom of speech"

Why did I raise it? I just responded to No_Mind's assertion. Is that okay?

Now if you want to continue perhaps you could make a case for how there is "full freedom of speech in DW now". Can you do that?
Mr Man wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:49 pm

No_Mind asserted that there was "full freedom of speech in DW now" and I said this was not the case.

I can tell you what I am not free to say. I am not free to say things and use language that is inappropriate to minors. Do I have a problem with that? no. But that does mean I do not have "full freedom of speech"

Why did I raise it? I just responded to No_Mind's assertion. Is that okay?

Now if you want to continue perhaps you could make a case for how there is "full freedom of speech in DW now". Can you do that?
Yes, I explained to you how No_Mind's assertion could be completely true. In terms of negative liberty, there are no restrictions upon the behaviour of one who does not intend to post contrary to the ToS. You are not free to use language inappropriate to minors (and a few other things besides) but my question is whether you are happy with these restrictions. It's perfectly OK to respond to No_Mind's assertion, just as it is equally OK for me to respond to yours; that's what happens on a public forum.

I'm not interested in making a case that there is "full freedom of speech in DW now", as that would be, as I have said earlier, a logical nonsense in any situation. The concept is unintelligible. I'm not interested in whether you think you are free to post anything at all. I'm interested in asking you if you are free to post whatever you want.

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Mr Man
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Mr Man » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:20 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:35 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 6:49 pm
No_Mind asserted that there was "full freedom of speech in DW now" and I said this was not the case.
Yes, I explained to you how No_Mind's assertion could be completely true.
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:35 pm
I'm not interested in making a case that there is "full freedom of speech in DW now", as that would be, as I have said earlier, a logical nonsense in any situation. The concept is unintelligible.
???? Could it be completely true or is it an unintelligible concept? And if you thought "full freedom of speech in DW now" is an unintelligible concept perhaps your conversation should have been with No_Mind not me.
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:35 pm
I'm not interested in whether you think you are free to post anything at all. I'm interested in asking you if you are free to post whatever you want.
Well in my opinion that question is not relevant however I did mention earlier that I had received board warnings, one fairly recently, for posting something that I wanted to post.

Is this conversation relevant to the OP Sam?

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Sam Vara
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:32 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 9:20 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 8:35 pm
I'm not interested in making a case that there is "full freedom of speech in DW now", as that would be, as I have said earlier, a logical nonsense in any situation. The concept is unintelligible.
???? Could it be completely true or is it an unintelligible concept? And if you thought "full freedom of speech in DW now" is an unintelligible concept perhaps your conversation should have been with No_Mind not me.
It's unintelligible. I didn't take it up with No_Mind because I assumed that he had the same conception of freedom of speech as I do. He certainly seems happy enough with the situation here. He thinks he can post anything that he wants, and I concur with him.
Well in my opinion that question is not relevant however I did mention earlier that I had received board warnings, one fairly recently, for posting something that I wanted to post.
I think it is the crux of the matter; the difference between two different conceptions of freedom, only one of which is relevant here.
Is this conversation relevant to the OP Sam?
I think so, in that it is about moderation and different ways of doing it. I'm happy to leave it here, but if another moderator wants to move it, I'm happy with that also.

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Modus.Ponens
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Modus.Ponens » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:39 pm

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:34 pm
lyndon taylor wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:55 pm
the reason diversity is so important is that each race and gender has certain positive and otherwise attributes that they can bring to the table that a member of another race or gender might not even be aware of, its not about equality, its about welcoming diverse and differing viewpoints into the equation. The Idea of an Asian religions forum being run by all white Western men does not really bring the full beauty, viewpoints, and traditional history of what is almost exclusively in terms of numbers an Asian tradition. The idea that advanced English proficiency is a prerequisite for moderators, would eliminate 99% of the Buddhist monks and nuns in the world, including the Venerable Ajahn Chah if he were still with us.
A couple of points here, if I may.

1) What "positive and otherwise attributes" do particular races have, do you think? Would you like to specify a few races and then state their attributes?
I'm curious about this too. I can see diversity of individual opinions, diversity of socioeconomic backgrounds, and cultural diversity as valuable on certain ocasions, especially the diversity of individual view points. But racial diversity, in and of itself, is quite the mystery to me. When did the far left and the far right decided to agree that races are essentially different?

It may be my "privileged" "right wing" position that compels me to not accept race essentialism. So I wouldn't mind a clarification on how the "races" are different.
"He turns his mind away from those phenomena and, having done so, inclines his mind to the property of deathlessness: 'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' " - Jhana Sutta

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Sam Vara
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:42 pm

Modus.Ponens wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:39 pm

I'm curious about this too. I can see diversity of individual opinions, diversity of socioeconomic backgrounds, and cultural diversity as valuable on certain ocasions, especially the diversity of individual view points. But racial diversity, in and of itself, is quite the mystery to me. When did the far left and the far right decided to agree that races are essentially different?

It may be my "privileged" "right wing" position that compels me to not accept race essentialism. So I wouldn't mind a clarification on how the "races" are different.
Indeed. Particularly interesting would be essential differences relating to intelligence. Or morality.

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Coëmgenu
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Coëmgenu » Fri Jan 19, 2018 1:33 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:34 pm
lyndon taylor wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:55 pm
the reason diversity is so important is that each race and gender has certain positive and otherwise attributes that they can bring to the table that a member of another race or gender might not even be aware of, its not about equality, its about welcoming diverse and differing viewpoints into the equation. The Idea of an Asian religions forum being run by all white Western men does not really bring the full beauty, viewpoints, and traditional history of what is almost exclusively in terms of numbers an Asian tradition. The idea that advanced English proficiency is a prerequisite for moderators, would eliminate 99% of the Buddhist monks and nuns in the world, including the Venerable Ajahn Chah if he were still with us.
A couple of points here, if I may.

1) What "positive and otherwise attributes" do particular races have, do you think? Would you like to specify a few races and then state their attributes?
This reminds me of American-style vs French-style anti-racism discourses. American anti-racists: "35% of jail inmates are black, that seems awfully high"

French responce: "How dare you call them black you bigot!"
如無為,如是難見、不動、不屈、不死、無漏、覆蔭、洲渚、濟渡、依止、擁護、不流轉、離熾焰、離燒然、流通、清涼、微妙、安隱、無病、無所有、涅槃。
Like this is the uncreated, like this is that which is difficult to realize, with no moving, no bending, no dying. Utterly lacking secretions and smothered in the dark, it is the island shore. Where there is ferrying, it is the crossing. It is dependency's ceasing, it is the end of circulating transmissions. It is the exhaustion of the flame, it is the ending of the burning. Flowing openly, pure and cool, with secret subtlety, and calm occultation, lacking ailment, lacking owning, nirvāṇa.
Asaṁskṛtadharmasūtra, Sermon on the Uncreated Phenomenon, T99.224b7, Saṁyuktāgama 890

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No_Mind
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by No_Mind » Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:56 am

lyndon taylor wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:55 pm
This is a completely bogus argument against diversity, the reason diversity is so important is that each race and gender has certain positive and otherwise attributes that they can bring to the table that a member of another race or gender might not even be aware of, its not about equality, its about welcoming diverse and differing viewpoints into the equation. The Idea of an Asian religions forum being run by all white Western men does not really bring the full beauty, viewpoints, and traditional history of what is almost exclusively in terms of numbers an Asian tradition. The idea that advanced English proficiency is a prerequisite for moderators, would eliminate 99% of the Buddhist monks and nuns in the world, including the Venerable Ajahn Chah if he were still with us.
Let me interject about Asian mods -

Asian-American mods will have an American's/westerners outlook.

Asian-Asians can never be mods. Because Asians will never argue and never be present at any forum (the reason why forums are so lacking in India .. except one about broadband and one about Hinduism which has lot of members but very few active threads and ironically most participants are white Hindu converts .. there is no discussion because discussion leads to arguments and arguments are energy sapping)

Debating publicly is looked upon as an inferior and unnecessary skill in Asia.

:namaste:
I know one thing: that I know nothing

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Sam Vara
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Sam Vara » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:43 am

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:56 am

Debating publicly is looked upon as an inferior and unnecessary skill in Asia.

:namaste:
Things seem to have changed since this guy:
Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son went to those Licchavis and, on arrival, said to them, "Come out, good Licchavis! Come out, good Licchavis! Today will be my discussion with Gotama the contemplative! If he takes the position with me that was taken with me by his famous disciples, the monk named Assaji, then just as a strong man, seizing a long-haired ram by the hair, would drag him to and drag him fro and drag him all around, in the same way I, statement by statement, will drag Gotama the contemplative to and drag him fro and drag him all around. Just as a strong distillery worker, throwing a large distiller's strainer into a deep water tank and grabbing it by the corners, would drag it to and drag it fro and drag it all around, in the same way I, statement by statement, will drag Gotama the contemplative to and drag him fro and drag him all around. Just as a strong distillery ruffian, grabbing a horse-hair strainer by the corners, would shake it down and shake it out and thump it, in the same way I, statement by statement, will shake Gotama the contemplative down and shake him out and thump him. Just as a sixty-year old elephant, plunging into a deep pond, would amuse itself playing the game of hemp-washing, in the same way I will amuse myself playing the game of hemp-washing Gotama the contemplative, as it were. Come on out, good Licchavis! Come on out, good Licchavis! Today will be my discussion with Gotama the contemplative!"
And lots of suttas depict the Buddha debating socratically. Maybe debate is praised and practised during times when there is a lot of uncertainty, and then declines when the truth (or the perceived truth) is accepted by a majority of the population.

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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by binocular » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:19 am

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:43 am
Maybe debate is praised and practised during times when there is a lot of uncertainty, and then declines when the truth (or the perceived truth) is accepted by a majority of the population.
It seems to me that it's the other way around: In times of certainty, people can afford to indulge in luxuries, such as talking that is pretty much for the sake of talking. When times are tough, people preach, or don't talk much at all.

Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:43 am
And lots of suttas depict the Buddha debating socratically.
Were those debates, though?
The communications in the suttas don't fall into the categories of debates, some are discussions, many are preaching (yes, yes, a term many people don't like nowadays ...).
Every person we save is one less zombie to fight. -- World War Z

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Sam Vara
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Sam Vara » Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:56 pm

binocular wrote:
Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:19 am
Sam Vara wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:43 am
Maybe debate is praised and practised during times when there is a lot of uncertainty, and then declines when the truth (or the perceived truth) is accepted by a majority of the population.
It seems to me that it's the other way around: In times of certainty, people can afford to indulge in luxuries, such as talking that is pretty much for the sake of talking. When times are tough, people preach, or don't talk much at all.
Possibly. Historical examples required.
Were those debates, though?
The communications in the suttas don't fall into the categories of debates, some are discussions, many are preaching (yes, yes, a term many people don't like nowadays ...).
It would be interesting to see a breakdown of methods or styles within the suttas, but there is certainly a great deal of preaching, and there are lots of debates which take the form of Socratic elenchus.

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Circle5
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Re: Diversity among mods

Post by Circle5 » Sun Jan 21, 2018 10:10 pm

No_Mind wrote:
Fri Jan 19, 2018 2:56 am
lyndon taylor wrote:
Thu Jan 18, 2018 2:55 pm
This is a completely bogus argument against diversity, the reason diversity is so important is that each race and gender has certain positive and otherwise attributes that they can bring to the table that a member of another race or gender might not even be aware of, its not about equality, its about welcoming diverse and differing viewpoints into the equation. The Idea of an Asian religions forum being run by all white Western men does not really bring the full beauty, viewpoints, and traditional history of what is almost exclusively in terms of numbers an Asian tradition. The idea that advanced English proficiency is a prerequisite for moderators, would eliminate 99% of the Buddhist monks and nuns in the world, including the Venerable Ajahn Chah if he were still with us.
Let me interject about Asian mods -

Asian-American mods will have an American's/westerners outlook.

Asian-Asians can never be mods. Because Asians will never argue and never be present at any forum (the reason why forums are so lacking in India .. except one about broadband and one about Hinduism which has lot of members but very few active threads and ironically most participants are white Hindu converts .. there is no discussion because discussion leads to arguments and arguments are energy sapping)

Debating publicly is looked upon as an inferior and unnecessary skill in Asia.

:namaste:
Asian monks ? Are you kidding ? What exactly do asian monks have to do with what the historical Buddha taught ? Monks in asian countries have nothing to do with the 4 nikayas, they only read abbhidhama and stuff like that. They have 8 years of buddhist collage where they have zero suttas into the program. I am sure there are some that somehow stumble across the nikayas and read them, but such a thing is extremely rate.

They didn't even translate the nikayas from Pali into Thai language or any other modern language. It was the americans that first translated them. So what exactly do those asian monks have to do with what the Buddha taught ? For me they are just like christian monks.

Actually, they are not even like christian monks, they are like christian orthodox priest. This happened because by lacking priest in the buddhist tradition, monks filled the gap and now they are simply like christian priest. Same as infamous orthodox priest from Romania, they have a pretty bad image over there. For me, praising these asian monks is just like praising christian orthodox priest from my country.

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