In this particular case, is there really a difference between the two?retrofuturist wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2018 11:33 pmIs it these people being attacked, or is it their articles of faith about the origins of the Abhidhamma being challenged?
Diversity among mods
Re: Diversity among mods
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Diversity among mods
Come to think of it, it's a matter of perspective and which sector of society one focuses on. Look at the global crisis and the way people talk about it, for example: some people believe the solution is relatively simple and that there is nothing much to discuss or debate; some others think the crisis is intractable and can show this by citing abundant evidence and arguments.Sam Vara wrote: ↑Sun Jan 21, 2018 1:56 pmPossibly. Historical examples required.
What you said earlier seems counterintuitive to me: I think that in times of (personal) uncertainty, people will act defensively and try to reduce their vulnerability, which means, among other things, they will avoid exposing their mental and other weaknesses, which could be exposed in debate.
How can there be a "Socratic debate" -- isn't that a contradiction in terms? But that's for another thread.It would be interesting to see a breakdown of methods or styles within the suttas, but there is certainly a great deal of preaching, and there are lots of debates which take the form of Socratic elenchus.Were those debates, though?
The communications in the suttas don't fall into the categories of debates, some are discussions, many are preaching (yes, yes, a term many people don't like nowadays ...).
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Re: Diversity among mods
Possibly; and then conversely:
We don't actually know that the Venerable Śāriputra did transmit definitive Abhidhamma clarifications of suttanta. Anyone who tells you otherwise in an absolutist manner is not being academically honest.
Re: Diversity among mods
Certainly, if that person were an academic or if they were basing their appeals upon contemporary academic Buddhology.
But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Diversity among mods
Abbhidhamma did not exist untill 3rd century. It did not exist at the first 2 buddhist councils. That is the end of the discussion about weather Sariputta transmited it or not. Sariputta was dead for 300 years for god sake.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pm Certainly, if that person were an academic or if they were basing their appeals upon contemporary academic Buddhology.
But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
Re: Diversity among mods
You just don't get it, eh? The above is a series of blanket statements based on artificially firming-up the considerably-vaguer stances of several contemporary academic Buddhologists. It is not a valid source of information outside of that academy necessarily at all.Circle5 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:09 amAbbhidhamma did not exist untill 3rd century. It did not exist at the first 2 buddhist councils. That is the end of the discussion about weather Sariputta transmited it or not. Sariputta was dead for 300 years for god sake.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pm Certainly, if that person were an academic or if they were basing their appeals upon contemporary academic Buddhology.
But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Diversity among mods
Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pmCertainly, if that person were an academic or if they were basing their appeals upon contemporary academic Buddhology.
But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
Re: Diversity among mods
I recall this point also being made in another recent thread, and I think it's worth thinking about:
Mike
In the other thread I noted that the Dhamma runs counter to various materialist and intellectual ideas, so it's worth considering whether we bring too much baggage from "the academy" to our evaluation of what is "True Dhamma".Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pm But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
Mike
Re: Diversity among mods
Baggage from "the academy", and from our specific culture of origin in general.mikenz66 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 9:09 amIn the other thread I noted that the Dhamma runs counter to various materialist and intellectual ideas, so it's worth considering whether we bring too much baggage from "the academy" to our evaluation of what is "True Dhamma".Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pm But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
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Re: Diversity among mods
I personally don't think the Abidhamma was originated as is traditionally believed. The difference between a buddhist and a nonbuddhist is that a nonbuddhist has no realistic place for reasonable doubt, while a buddhist has space for reasonable doubt that the story might be true.
2 cents
Añjali
2 cents
Añjali
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
Re: Diversity among mods
1) The language used in the abbhidhamma is from 3rd centuries after the Buddha.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:08 amYou just don't get it, eh? The above is a series of blanket statements based on artificially firming-up the considerably-vaguer stances of several contemporary academic Buddhologists. It is not a valid source of information outside of that academy necessarily at all.Circle5 wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 2:09 amAbbhidhamma did not exist untill 3rd century. It did not exist at the first 2 buddhist councils. That is the end of the discussion about weather Sariputta transmited it or not. Sariputta was dead for 300 years for god sake.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Mon Jan 22, 2018 6:44 pm Certainly, if that person were an academic or if they were basing their appeals upon contemporary academic Buddhology.
But if I could offer a point-counter-point: perspectives rooted in EBT studies, however right or wrong, are perspectives rooted in the academy, specifically the academy of textual criticism. Perspectives rooted in traditional Theravada are not. In light of that I don't think one can 'honestly' call out a traditional Theravadin for being specifically academically dishonest. They and the academy are different things altogether.
2) The abbhidhamma was not recited at the first and second buddhist council
3) No sane person will ever claim it is as old as the suttas. Even the most fundamentalist abbhidhabamist will acept that it was created 3 centuries after the nikayas, only that he might like the book nonetheless.
There is one thing to like a book, another thing to claim the Bible was written in the time of the dinasours and that Abbhidhabamma was written 10 centuries before the Buddha. Such claims are simply stupid lies. Blame the academics or other smart people how much you want, there is no way you'll ever convince me the Bible was written by the dinasaurs or that abbhidhabamma was written during the time amphibians evolved into mammals.
Facts top opinions.
Re: Diversity among mods
This is very academically dishonest. Abbhidhabamma is fun to say, though.Circle5 wrote: ↑Wed Jan 24, 2018 5:35 pm1) The language used in the abbhidhamma is from 3rd centuries after the Buddha.Coëmgenu wrote: ↑Tue Jan 23, 2018 8:08 amYou just don't get it, eh? The above is a series of blanket statements based on artificially firming-up the considerably-vaguer stances of several contemporary academic Buddhologists. It is not a valid source of information outside of that academy necessarily at all.
2) The abbhidhamma was not recited at the first and second buddhist council
3) No sane person will ever claim it is as old as the suttas. Even the most fundamentalist abbhidhabamist will acept that it was created 3 centuries after the nikayas, only that he might like the book nonetheless.
There is one thing to like a book, another thing to claim the Bible was written in the time of the dinasours and that Abbhidhabamma was written 10 centuries before the Buddha. Such claims are simply stupid lies. Blame the academics or other smart people how much you want, there is no way you'll ever convince me the Bible was written by the dinasaurs or that abbhidhabamma was written during the time amphibians evolved into mammals.
Facts top opinions.
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Re: Diversity among mods
It reminds me of: "I be da bomb."Coëmgenu wrote: Abbhidhabamma
What is the Uncreated?
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.
Sublime & free, what is that obscured Eternity?
It is the Undying, the Bright, the Isle.
It is an Ocean, a Secret: Reality.
Both life and oblivion, it is Nirvāṇa.